TaygibayVaria :
@mrmalaya
And another thing, if SPECTRA is the French Crown Jewels, then are they giving them away to the indians?
Same goes for all hi-tech stuff, mate! Plus, there are already
upgrades coming on Spectra as part of the evolution roadmap.
Besides, as some know from F-35, selling a product does not
mean selling its proper use along with it.;)
About carbon fiber, I’ve personally thrown life-warranted bikes
of that material at boulders in excess of 90 klicks without undue
dammage to either*.
Modern day composites fare as well as titanium for instance!:eek:
@Lindermyer :
I do not mean to be rude and really youre english is at least 1000 times better than youre french.
You meant to write my surely!:p
A mistake in a correction? You’re unmasked, mate! You’re human!:D
Good day all, Tay.
P.S. Thnx swerve for the add. info on Converteam, sold to GE sadly!:(
TaygibayFerrari :
Buick :
Which is bigger? Which is better?
Sorry, just a pun, couldn’t help it!:diablo:
The A400M is not negociable anymore.
Good day all, Tay.
P.S. Thanks EEL for the feedback.
TaygibayTell you what EEL, if you link the last part of your message to the first,
I can spew forth this effort in favor of the Typhoon :
Getting those CFTs ASAP might be a game-changer!
Issues about Taurus’ volume and size notwithstanding,
the added fuel capacity would make every weapon on
the EF way more potent/useful and open configs wildly.
We have a cult following on those in the Rafale community
but I really believe that you guys should push to get them first!
Have they gone further than those aerodynamics testing models, BTW?
Dassault had mock-ups made to test the aerology although they
are not even to be ordered yet.
TaygibayThe move from B to C variant of your Lightning II’s
is also quite brilliant as the STOVL version may yet get axed
which is thus not a UK problem anymore!
Double kudos to the MoD!
Oh, BTW Snow,
France would be likely to use the same system if/when they build their own carrier (IMHO).
???
Should have read “when they build their NEXT carrier”.
This said, I’ll look into Converteam.
Always better to build in-house so good idea.
Good day all, Tay.
TaygibayAnd to supplement GoldenPawn’s comment,
it took 180 tons of weapons and equipment
to be moved to Solenzara for an OPINT!:D
Same procedure Transalls and Hercs doing
their job.
There still are 2000’s from France and Qatar
in La suda since before you posted on the 26th.
A day earlier to be true and yet as confirmed here,
a link fresh enough for sure… both meanings!
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/actualites/articles2/vols-franco-qatariens-une-cooperation-de-longue-date
Good day all, Tay.
Taygibay@Hawx, no prob mate but let it be known that I had discovered fire
before you said something incorrect, as a matter of tribal pride!:D
TaygibayYou guys have to stop writing TRANCE 3 as seen in numerous posts!:rolleyes:
I’m not a Typhie fan boy but it’s beginning to bother me!
Precious sure but to be corrected!:p
BTW, about the nuke thing earlier, no bug really; I was just
thinking in terms of Indian needs and differences of original
intent between the two birds! The Phoon is not nuked because
it was not asked to be, simple enough!:)
I’ll check on that schedule anew, ray! Time went by!
Good night gang, Tay.
TaygibayHey Boom, good morning!
You replied :
come on Tay, whichever way you cut it, typhi and rafa are not that different either. if france wanted it could have easily created a france specific version of EF that covered most if not all of its requirements.
yet, it didn’t. what that and your post shows is that france was unwilling to handover or even share leadership on the fighter project. absolutely nothing wrong in that.
just that similar reasons exist for the tejas, scrapping it was an option that was not even on the table. it was India’s chance to develop a modern fighter from scratch to full service, an experience that was absolutely invaluable to the domestic industry and there was no way they were going to surrender that for saving a couple of 100 mn (if that). as I said, read up a little on the total costs of the tejas program and you will appreciate that pound for pound, what it gives India’s MIC is absolutely unbeatable.
First : most if not all of its requirements. was not an option!
All of our needs HAD to be covered, main reason for split!
The Rafale and the Typhoon are very different, mate.
The EF was to be an interceptor over Northern Europe.
Only later did the bombing and the rest got added.
The Rafale was intended from the start to be the one
fighter to cover all our needs.
The Rafale was designed naval from the inception, EF….
The Rafale was designed with discretion plus Spectra in
an “organic stealth” vision, the fat bottomed lass…
How long till the Nuke Typhoon? Cause ours is on the job.
How long till the SEAD Typhoon for next Lybia-type job?
If you want the reverse, Typhoon was to be in a sort of
hi-lo mix with Tornadoes first and then F-35. So why would
it get designed for those jobs? Very logically, it didn’t!
The closest bird to the Raffy is the SuppaHorny or the F-35.
There was no way those drawing boards would merge even
before industrial leadership gets trown in the equation.
As for the TEJAS, I think I found out where we clash!
You may not have had the chance to check all my posts on it.
BEFORE the short-list on MMRCA, I was of the opinion that
TEJAS should have gotten the MMRCA!.
Then all the money would have gone national.
Any funds spent on things like Snecma’s involvment in the
Kaveri would have been to better local products and not just
finish the integration of miscellani for the foreign producer.
Not being in charge of procurements for you guys, it didn’t!:(
Now that the money will go Foufoune/Raffy… I’d rather the rest
of what is available go into future National projects. That’s the
same feeling/reasoning I would have had for my country.
The Brits suddenly remembered Entente Cordiale when the Yanks
decided to deprive them of their hard earned/hard paid rights to
steer future development of the Lightning II to fit UK needs.
I still do not believe the Tejas to be Gripen NG comparable BUT…
it could have become so! Now that the role is to be awarded to a
EuroCanard, I would push the AMCA more than TEJAS.
Does it make more sense?
We know that the PAK_FA thing will happen, right?
Then, IMHO opinion, the future of India’s MIC would be better served
by putting as many ressources as possible on making the AMCA
as good AND national as possible to complete the mix.*
It is not denigrating your country to suggest that money is limited.
The US is on a two planes plan as are most of their allies
to the notable exception of Sweden and France
who are on a one plane plan!
Money reasons, mostly!
Later mate, Tay!
* Picture AMCA landing in naval variant on a national carrier
for the World’s first stealth plane to do so record!
TaygibayHey Hawx, you said :
HAWX ace
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenPawn
Souda Crete isn’t the closest AB?
Yes it is. But it has no infrastructure for French fighters; no spares, no weapons, nothing. Everything needs to be flown in. So basically a Rafale could only refuel in Crete at this time.
I say : foot in the mouth :
Good night all, Tay.
Taygibay@Boom
Sorry mate, I read your post but am too tired to answer properly.
Expect an answer between 12 and 24 +hours.
Just a quick reply to this though :
also why didn’t france wrap up the rafale and join EF consortium as a junior partner ? I know what your answer is going to be and I can tell you originates from a rather ignorant view of the tejas program and what it has achieved.
France COULD NOT have done that for the simple reason that
the Rafale and the EF are not comparable planes!
France withdrew from the EF2000 because it wanted and needed
a do-it-all machine not a bombing dogfighter or a bomber that
could dogfight.*
We wanted omni-role ( sorry guys ) and we got it!
I don’t know if that was the answer you knew was coming but it
is the truth!
Sure it doesn’t serve ice cream on the streetcorner as some required
but as INDIA will soon discover IMHO, it does what it should, a tad more
than others.
Can’t wait to see you guys kick azz with it az you did with M2Ks, BTW!:D
Write/Read you tomorrow, Tay.
*That and size and timetable and industrial leadership.
Taygibay@ Boom, belated answer, sorry!
Pak-Fa can be hastened with money.
“how so ? kindly be specific as to which parts of PAKFA project are being held up for lack of money”
Just about anything from R&D and production of the engines
and AESA to setting up a larger plant faster?
Killing Tejas only to immediately go into cooperation with SAAB
on the NG as a replacement to it and MMRCA pick.
“and how would that be ‘smart’ for India ? that would be the stupidest thing anyone could do, destroy a vital project in which a lot of effort and investment has gone into. and then replace it with a costlier foreign option that is at best comparable to the original product ?
so killing a domestic product that would create jobs inside the country to pay more to a foreign seller for a product very comparable is smart thinking ? “
I do believe this has been answered by numerous
“raised eyebrows” posts. I am sorry mate but the
TEJAS is not comparable to the GRIPEN NG. Your
vital project has fulfilled its role of teaching the
industry how to design and produce a modern jet.
That expertise could have been used on making
the NG in India as Junior partners to SAAB as NG
is not in production yet and then as Senior partner
on the AMCA.
Then get a major player into the AMCA, not lite counseling!
“as I said AMCA has no relation with MRCA or tejas. not sure why you are under the illusion those are somehow connected. and getting a major player for AMCA is more like ‘nice to have’, not something essential.”
I am under the impression that those two are connected
as dots in the learning curve of Indian plane makers.
I am also under the impression that AMCA is a hefty
call for them! Heck, I’ll bet 20 bucks any currency that
if done entirely alone AMCA will be more succesful than
TEJAS but less than Western equivalents. Next one … ?
I’ll let the Swedes appreciate “dumbing down to gripNG levels”
as it relates to replacing Fishbeds, M2000s and Tejas!!!
“why on earth would someone want to ‘replace’ tejas with something that is at similar levels of tech and capability but costs more ?
and dumbing down wrt EF and rafale. what they are replacing is irrelevant, what is relevant is what IAF needs. “
Answered up there.
As for cancelling a program with dubious results, just remember
that America ( Which, IIRRC, has less problems feeding its people
than India. ) is reducing the F-35 program and has in recent years
“killed” Comanche and EFV amongst others! Maybe a lesson there?
“not sure what lesson, may be that we are not US and the commanche does not have the slightest similarity with tejas ? also, you are clearly ill informed about the tejas program.
what we do have learned is that if you try to ‘save’ on the domestic programs you end up getting screwed by greedy foreign firms like dassault, as the mirage upg shows.
of course, lectures about poverty materialise only when it comes to Indian projects, conveniently forgetting that even after all the supposed ‘cost over runs’ and ‘delays’ the program still cost only around $ 1 bn. that includes the cost of setting up basic infrastructure for aircraft development.”
*
If you understand that I am suggesting using all the money
planned for TEJAS on the AMCA and promoting the industry,
there is no way that you can fault me for the “lecture”.
Saying that there are steps yet on acquiring a top notch
military aircraft production industrial capacity is not showing
disrespect but interest. Saying that you can and should hone
your skills some more is not condescendence, it stems from
frienship. GO, go go India!:)
Just remember what club you are trying to join!
Three countries build fighter planes from scratch
on a national basis. A handful of others can do so
solo with imported tech or in cooperation. That’s all!
No doubt about your getting there, disagreeing on timeline!
Let’s get back to the duel at hand.:D
Good day all, Tay.
* Your argument about economics of jobs induced is very valid.
Could the solution be exportation? Say flood Africa with TEJAS?
TaygibayLet me give you another suggestion.. Let Swedes kill the Gripen NG, and ask India for partnership in AMCA program. Because Sweden or no Sweden, Tejas and AMCA will happen
That’s a good take. Then MMRCA goes to Rafale
and AMCA goes coop with SAAB.
Not specifically what I outlined but in the spirit.
I’d still pull any major funding from TEJAS though!
Let’s not squander riches on a “learning program”;
India made the grade but the memoir is not great
enough for the school’s Hall of Fame!
Building the Rafale for twenty years will serve the
same function as a formative process from there
and the R&D/creative/AMCA gets the leftover loot!
India does not need a costly 15 strong fighter stable.
It needs the proper planes to deal with Pakistan and
ideally China.
Rafale/PAK-FA/AMCA in proper numbers and outfitted
correctly as the others dwindle into oblivion would be
rather nice, don’t you think?
And Jolly, it now appears that things will go quicker than expected.:D
Good day all, Tay.
TaygibayThere was a winking smiley by that sentence, Ben.;)
Taygibay@Boom
how would that have been responsible ? PAKFA can’t be hastened any more, killing tejas is out of the question, dumbing down to gripNG levels is not what IAF needs from MRCA and collaborating on AMCA might happen irrespective of the other programs.
Pak-Fa can be hastened with money.
Killing Tejas only to immediately go into cooperation with SAAB
on the NG as a replacement to it and MMRCA pick.
Then get a major player into the AMCA, not lite counseling!
I’ll let the Swedes appreciate “dumbing down to gripNG levels”
as it relates to replacing Fishbeds, M2000s and Tejas!!!
As for cancelling a program with dubious results, just remember
that America ( Which, IIRRC, has less problems feeding its people
than India. ) is reducing the F-35 program and has in recent years
“killed” Comanche and EFV amongst others! Maybe a lesson there?
——————-
As far as MMRCA’s “final approach” is concerned, with some luck,
we could get a tad more proper infos with the thinning, let’s hope!
Good day all, Tay.
Taygibayno Dassault its not your fault, its the fault of the French.
Mmmm’weeeeeeeellllll, actually…..
Dassault has developped a family tradition into a bad habit, it seems!
Numerous off-record sources and a couple press snipets throughout the
years apparently indicate that they are less and less fond of upgrades!
Circonvoluted business processes muddling things up in the meanwhile,
my beloved planemaker now goes so far as to dismantle rivals, i.e. Astra.
Check it out!:mad:
This sad thing behind us, true & sad & ridiculous, 12CoolF, about Morocco.
And yes, the Élysée askings all Indian armed forces uniforms to be adorned
with Made in France Bordeaux wine Delirium/Pixie dust decorations to the
tune of twice the millenary Indian revenue basis as proper “back-offset”
may yet be to come true but we now have, as has been often pointed out
two different warbirds pit against each other.
From what we now know ( The shortlist.), what are the “naïve” guesses?
BTW, Responsible Initiative would have said : either keep Tejas,
downsize MMRCA numbers and hasten cooperation on Pak-Fan or…
kill Tejas, buy Gripen-NG and collaborate with serious people on
the Next Gen, whomever!
Just a naïve thought, good night all, Tay.
Sign In
