I think there is absolutely no chance that BA will offer any support at all – financial or otherwise. They don’t give a d@mn about British aviation.
In actual fact, I was told that BA used to provide a lot of financial support (and support in kind) to Cosford and the people there became very twitchy when it was suggested that Virgin Atlantic be approached for funding.
Of course, times change.
The article attached was written by my friend Douglas Gilles in 1978
Original copy replaced. I hope this can be read!!!
Ah, Scottish Air News. That brings back memories of CSAG Committee meetings and the perpetual semi-friction between the Glasgow and Edinburgh factions. I might even have been on the editorial team back in 1978…
I watch the highlights and yes, Pete Burns, is scary.
I watch the highlights and yes, Pete Burns, is scary.
DFW used to offer tours back in the late 1980s which included a visit to the control tower, then on a bus to the runway holding point for photography usually timed to coincide with a departure wave, then a buffet meal.
I would imagine these stopped a long time ago.
Ah, the Palmdale branch of the bank then?
Or this one for UK serials back to WA***
No, the agreement only refers to airlines and origin/destination of passsengers doesn’t get mentioned at all (how could that be regulated?) but I don’t have the actual text to hand so it would be fruitless to speculate further on the actual wording. However, I seem to remember that only a small number of airlines were allowed to operate services between the UK and Nepal from either country.
Yes, there is an article in the latest issue of ‘Classic Wings Downunder’ on just this very subject.
I can scan it for you or they should have something under ‘cuurent issue’ on their WEBSITE .
Cheers…….
Thanks for that. I looked at the bit under current issue and that will probably suffice for me. I don’t think the current mrs zooty will let me go to Baghdad to see it though. 🙁
#14. Fascinating comments and queries.
Here you have raised something that is not, as far as I know, actually covered by the nine defined freedoms, and is actually very rare. You know I’ve really racked my brains and cannot think of a single modern example. But I can give you a couple of historic cases. For a while in the 90s, I regularly used a now defunct carrier (Macair) to fly from Derry City (LDY) to Birmingham and / or London Stansted. Some flights stopped en route at Carrickfinn (CFN) in Donegal. And for years Manx had a wonderful Sunday afternoon flight from Manchester to Stansted with two en route stops in a foreign land en route, one at Shannon and the other at Waterford. That example also featured in the article in hidden europe magazine (I gave a live link to the full pdf file in #13 above).
Nicky Gardner
Historic examples would be in the days when HKG-UK services needed to stop en-route as traffic between HKG and the UK was classified as UK domestic traffic. I presume that a similar situation may exist with some services to
French overseas possesions.
I think the whole subject of freedoms is largely a conflict between the rigid and theoretical structures imposed by the regulatory process and the ingenuity displayed by airline network planning teams to get round these strictures and maximise their route network.
I used to have a copy of the air service agreement between the UK and Nepal but I can’t lay my hands on it. I remember that it was pretty specific in which airlines could fly, the number of frequencies they could operate, the countries in which en-roue stops could be made but I really wanted to check the particular language used in describing the type of services to be operated. However, these might have been included in the confidential MoU attached to the ASA which I didn’t have access to.
It would be interesting to see what the actual text contained in Open Skies agreements is.
No. it doesn’t need to be defined because it is not a Freedom recognised or mentioned in Air Service Agreements, which are held centrally by ICAO.
Having mislaid the directions to the chimney, Father Christmas opts for the conventional method of entry, albeit in disguise
Nah, I always found that you didn’t need to know it all (because invariably you got it wrong anyway) because knowing where to look was the key!
FREEDOMS OF THE AIR
First Freedom of the Air – the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State or States to fly across its territory without landing (also known as a First Freedom Right).
Second Freedom of the Air – the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State or States to land in its territory for non-traffic purposes (also known as a Second Freedom Right).
Third Freedom of The Air – the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to put down, in the territory of the first State, traffic coming from the home State of the carrier (also known as a Third Freedom Right).
Fourth Freedom of The Air – the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to take on, in the territory of the first State, traffic destined for the home State of the carrier (also known as a Fourth Freedom Right).
Fifth Freedom of The Air – the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to put down and to take on, in the territory of the first State, traffic coming from or destined to a third State (also known as a Fifth Freedom Right).
ICAO characterizes all “freedoms” beyond the Fifth as “so-called” because only the first five “freedoms” have been officially recognized as such by international treaty.
Sixth Freedom of The Air – the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting, via the home State of the carrier, traffic moving between two other States (also known as a Sixth Freedom Right). The so-called Sixth Freedom of the Air, unlike the first five freedoms, is not incorporated as such into any widely recognized air service agreements such as the “Five Freedoms Agreement”.
Seventh Freedom of The Air – the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State, of transporting traffic between the territory of the granting State and any third State with no requirement to include on such operation any point in the territory of the recipient State, i.e the service need not connect to or be an extension of any service to/from the home State of the carrier.
Eighth Freedom of The Air – the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting cabotage traffic between two points in the territory of the granting State on a service which originates or terminates in the home country of the foreign carrier or (in connection with the so-called Seventh Freedom of the Air) outside the territory of the granting State (also known as a Eighth Freedom Right or “consecutive cabotage”).
Ninth Freedom of The Air – the right or privilege of transporting cabotage traffic of the granting State on a service performed entirely within the territory of the granting State (also known as a Ninth Freedom Right or “stand alone” cabotage).
Source: ICAO Manual on the Regulation of International Air Transport (Doc 9626, Part 4)
Of course, did I say otherwise? 😉