PioneerThe F-111 was required to have a transatlantic ferry range with full complement of drop tanks. There is no way how it could have covered the distance with any useful bombload.
Only if the RAF had the A330-200 MRTT in service in 1982, which I suppose they didn’t.
Sorry my friend
But I was ‘not’ implying that the F-111K would have transited from the UK to the Falklands by them selves.
I was just trying to make the point that I didn’t know if ‘the then’ Victor / VC-10 tankers would have been able to air refuel them, as I did not know if the British F-111K was to have been fitted with either a fixed or retractable ‘hose and drogue’ receptor!
P.S. Out of interest does anyone know how many ‘top offs’ the Vulcan needed to achieve its attack on the Falklands?
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerI am confident to say that the ‘F-111K’ would have a far greater range than the Buccaneer!:)
It ‘may have’ arrived over its target (Falklands Islands), but it would probably only have done so with a minimal bomb load (at least two of the four main wing hardpoints being utilized for the huge drop tanks, that the F-111 uses!). Whether this would be free-fall bombs (say 12 x 500lb) to take out the runway, or more than likely a couple of Paveway PGB per aircraft.
You only have to consider what was possible, with the use of airborne refueling, which the RAF was equipped with (although the F-111 is only equipped with a boom receptor – While the British use a hose and drogue arrangement! (I am unsure if the F-111K was to have been fitted with ‘hose and drogue’ receptor, during its manufacturing?
Also unlike the Vulcan attack on the Falklands runway (which I salute for both achievement and skill of its crew and the typical tenacity of the RAF.), which was done at high altitude and directly over the target, if the F-111K was equipped with Paveway’s then it could of attacked the airfield from reasonable stand-off distance and safety.
But then again with the USAF and RAAF tactics of low altitude, ‘terrain following’ attack profile (as used by the RAF Tornado’s), this may have exposed the F-111K’s to the likes of the defending 20mm & 35mm AAA.
I know one thing for certain – if the Falklands airfield was defended by Argentinean Mirage III’s or Dagger’s (as they should have been!) I would rather have been in an F-111K than a Vulcan!
But then again it is ‘What If’:D
Then again in ‘real world’ terms, you may want to look at the ‘legs’ used by the USAF to carry out their attack on Libya, with their F-111’s. This may give you some indication of distance-to-air refueling points.
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerWell, if the Japanese aircraft magazines are anything to go by Typhoon is joint 2nd place with the F-35.
1st place is, of course, the F-22.
Japan will only get the F-22 if they can prove they can keep the secret stuff ‘secret’, like they didn’t with Top Secret AEGIS files…
And like they also didn’t with advanced submarine prop designs?
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerHi gents
I read somewhere that the EE Lightning was as maneuverable as that of the MiG-19, which also had extreme swept wings.
Like the Lightning was over shadowed by the Phantom II, so to the MiG-19 overshadowed by the MiG-21.
As for the big and powerful ‘Red Top missile – I don’t know how it feared against a smaller target like a fighter?
I thought it was designed more for knocking the teeth out of ‘Bear’s’
Regards
Pioneer
Pioneer[QUOTE=MadRat;1356049]Why the overlap between SH and F-35 missions? What is your component of NORAD for intercepting bombers over the heads of your Inuit populations? Certainly neither one of them was meant for the role, they are both built as strike aircraft.
I here what you are saying my friend
We in Australia are still scratching our heads over the ‘purchase’ of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, as a so-called stop-gap measure replacement for the F-111 ‘Pig’, until the arrival of the continuously delayed and ever more expensive (and down graded!) F-35.
The question I can not get answered is why the RAAF /Australian government didn’t just lease them?????:confused:
Secondly where was the Request for Proposal?????:(
Where was the important and thorough evaluation of other designs?????:rolleyes:
If this wasn’t bad enough – now there is serious talk and consideration to the purchasing of EF-18G Growlers to support these Super Hornets.:eek:
Some expensive stop-gap measure (wish I had shares in Boeing or the brown paper bags the Australian Liberal Party must have received!):dev2:
Man the infrastructure and training that is going to be needed to support these ‘stop-gap’ aircraft is ridicules, and near bordering on corruption at the highest levels of government.
Hell the Super Hornet doesn’t even have half the legs (range) or payload to be deemed as an effective strike-interdiction aircraft! – From an Australian perspective!!!
No if given my choice, I would have pushed for ‘leasing’ F-15E’s Strike Eagles
Ok they are an older design, than that of the Super Hornet, but they have longer legs and payload ratio than that of the Super Hornet any day!:D
And as for the Super Hornet itself – I would urge anyone to read ‘The Pentagon Paradox: the Development of the F-18 Hornet.’ (ISBN: 1557507759, Publisher: US Naval Institute Press (October 1993), Author James P. Stevenson
This has all the data, testimonies of the US Navy, McDonnell Douglas and Congress, which clearly shows that the Super Hornet was and is a failure in terms of development, performance and cost effectiveness as to what and why it was conceived.
In fact official inquires into the Super Hornet were to show that it only offered marginal improvements on that of the F/A-18C.
P.S. failing this and U.S. lobbyists manage to convince the Canadian’s to purchase their ‘great all singing, all dancing Super Hornet’, then the RCAF should at bare minimum insist on stripping them of all their carrier-based and operational needed equipment, to make them the slightest lighter and improve their power-to-weight ratio (PWR) if they are to meet Russia’s truly advanced, powerful and effective long-range air superiority fighter – the Su-27/32/33 ‘Flanker’ series over that freezing cold water – eating your Super Hornets alive, and the ones they don’t down will go down, due to ‘Bingo’ status
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerA very long range interceptor with very low operational cost, or at least something that get close.
My friend, I think the days of the specialized / single-role type aircraft, the likes of a ‘long-range interceptor’ you refer to, can no longer be afforded, let alone justified by the likes of Canada.
A CF-105 Arrow-2000?
What ever replaces the RCAF F/A-18 Hornets will have to be multi-rolled!
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerWhat nations in ASIA operate the Leopard MK 2???
Singapore has purchased Leo 2’s!
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerThe U.S Army also trialed a modified variant of the McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawk for rough field performance, with it single main landing gear wheel arrangement replaced by a twin wheel arrangement to lower ground pressure.
I have also seen photos of a Northrop F-5A Freedom Fighter taking off from a dirt strip (again this was to trial the aircrafts ability to operate and handle rough field (again this was to do with U.S Army requirement for its own organic Close Air Support requirement, which it felt the USAF was not taking serious!)
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerDo not forget the MiG-23 and MiG-27 ‘Flogger’ series!
One thing that the Russians/Soviets have never forgoten about WWII is the vulnrability of fixed runway!
Saab Viggen
AMX?
Su-17/22 ‘Fitter’
Su-25 ‘Frogfoot’
Regards
Pioneer
Pioneer‘Only my personal views’!
Point 1
One of my greatest and saddest concerns with this whole issue is the way that it has become SOP for Hamas (and the old PLO) to use the Palestinian population as human shields and sacrifices, from where they launch their rockets into Israel!
Hamas clearly knows and has calculated as part of their very warped strategy (as do most terrorist organizations!!), that their better organized and better conventionally armed opponents will and do retaliate with deadly force – i.e. counter attacking the position whence the rocket was launched form.
For what it is worth – at least the Israeli’s these days attempt to use PGM’s to take out these targets, as apposed to carpet bombing, or massive artillery fire!
Unfortunately for the average poor Palestinian, they have very limited choice as to where they can live – so they become civilian casualties to these counter attacks, which is all part of Hamas grand plan of continuing to feed and fester Arab hatred of Israel!
So why is the UN, the EU and other foreign governments or the media for that matter not more openly condemning Hamas use of civilians as human shield (or should I say open targets!)
Is there not a legal obligation of combatants (whether UN or Geneva Convention), which states that all must be done to protect civilians, firing on civilians, targeting of known civilian concentration? (I know that I have had this rammed into me before deploying on any operations!!).
I think the answer to this non condemnation of the likes of Hamas, has a lot to do with the fact that so many Arab and European countries have so many Palestinians, as either ex-pats or refugees for so long know, that any condemnation of the radical and fundamental organizations like that of the PLO or Hamas, knowingly brought trouble within their own countries – protest, riots, and attacks on Jewish people and property.
Which if countered against, as these countries are legally able to under civil law and order, only inflame things more!
It is very unfortunately, like so many other groups/organizations like the PLO, Hamas and the old IRA, that their original ideas and ideology (which can in some cases have some merit!) gets lost, distorted, or as in so many cases becomes a front for personal power, and financial gain!
I have been told by an older Palastinian gentleman (the grandfather of one of my best mates!) that before the creation of the State of Israel, that almost all the other Arabs used to use the Palestinians as their wiping boy, and direction of frustration (He stated that he thought it was partly due to the fact of their French governance, after Ottoman rule, at the end of WWI).
I am more than sure that if you were able to speak to most Arab leaders in private and off the record, I am more than confident that they would be more than willing to return their Palestinian ‘brothers’ back to the tranquility of Palestine
Point 2
Another of my on going concerns is the way in which the Israeli Defence Force appears to be heading down the long path that the United States has been traveling for the past few decades.
This is the fact, that it was both well known and respected – by friends and enemy alike! that in the past if you messed with Israel and its citizens alike, that you more than likely had your door, car kicked in by either Israeli Special Forces or Mossad agents, no matter where in the world you lived, operated or hid and either taken back to Israel or given a third eye!
These days, the Israeli’s tend to follow the American doctrine of ‘technology war’ – PGM, hitting a given target that some form of Intel has given, so as to show it on T.V, so as to appease the people back at home.
The problem I find with this is – like American doctrine, it has become so predictable.
Ok it saves Israeli soldiers lives!
Preservation of the servicemen’s lives is one of the greatest things that I respect the IDF for!
But in the end it only does half the job
It is not the ‘head shed’ / the brains of these organizations that are at the launch point of the rockets that are attacking Israel.
The likes of Hamas learned a long time ago how to launch these terror weapons, with the safety of command launch, at a safe distance, that kept them safe.
It’s the poor old Palestinian civilian, who is unfortunately killed or injured when the adjoining building they live in is hit by Israeli counter-fire.
But his is all part of the Hamas big picture and plan
No I like the George Orwell quote of –
‘We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.’
Hell I am tired of some of the countries and dictators of this world hiding behind religion and history, paying for and supplying weapons to these organizations that are nothing but butches, and nothing but terrorist!
Why doesn’t the UN, The Arab League, the EU and the heads of religions come down on these countries and organizations?
Cut off the head that supply, support, training and gives sanctuaries to terrorism.:dev2:
And your terrorist organizations would withier and die.
Hell I would hate to be an Israeli today:o
As to I would hate to be a Palestinian:o
Antarctica is looking good!:confused:
But sticking our heads in the sand is what makes this hate and war go on!!
P.S.
Before everyone hopes onto the band wagon
I am not Jewish
Hell I am not even religious!! (the above being the prim reason for this!!):confused:
Regards
Pioneer
Pioneer‘Only my personal views’!
Point 1
One of my greatest and saddest concerns with this whole issue is the way that it has become SOP for Hamas (and the old PLO) to use the Palestinian population as human shields and sacrifices, from where they launch their rockets into Israel!
Hamas clearly knows and has calculated as part of their very warped strategy (as do most terrorist organizations!!), that their better organized and better conventionally armed opponents will and do retaliate with deadly force – i.e. counter attacking the position whence the rocket was launched form.
For what it is worth – at least the Israeli’s these days attempt to use PGM’s to take out these targets, as apposed to carpet bombing, or massive artillery fire!
Unfortunately for the average poor Palestinian, they have very limited choice as to where they can live – so they become civilian casualties to these counter attacks, which is all part of Hamas grand plan of continuing to feed and fester Arab hatred of Israel!
So why is the UN, the EU and other foreign governments or the media for that matter not more openly condemning Hamas use of civilians as human shield (or should I say open targets!)
Is there not a legal obligation of combatants (whether UN or Geneva Convention), which states that all must be done to protect civilians, firing on civilians, targeting of known civilian concentration? (I know that I have had this rammed into me before deploying on any operations!!).
I think the answer to this non condemnation of the likes of Hamas, has a lot to do with the fact that so many Arab and European countries have so many Palestinians, as either ex-pats or refugees for so long know, that any condemnation of the radical and fundamental organizations like that of the PLO or Hamas, knowingly brought trouble within their own countries – protest, riots, and attacks on Jewish people and property.
Which if countered against, as these countries are legally able to under civil law and order, only inflame things more!
It is very unfortunately, like so many other groups/organizations like the PLO, Hamas and the old IRA, that their original ideas and ideology (which can in some cases have some merit!) gets lost, distorted, or as in so many cases becomes a front for personal power, and financial gain!
I have been told by an older Palastinian gentleman (the grandfather of one of my best mates!) that before the creation of the State of Israel, that almost all the other Arabs used to use the Palestinians as their wiping boy, and direction of frustration (He stated that he thought it was partly due to the fact of their French governance, after Ottoman rule, at the end of WWI).
I am more than sure that if you were able to speak to most Arab leaders in private and off the record, I am more than confident that they would be more than willing to return their Palestinian ‘brothers’ back to the tranquility of Palestine
Point 2
Another of my on going concerns is the way in which the Israeli Defence Force appears to be heading down the long path that the United States has been traveling for the past few decades.
This is the fact, that it was both well known and respected – by friends and enemy alike! that in the past if you messed with Israel and its citizens alike, that you more than likely had your door, car kicked in by either Israeli Special Forces or Mossad agents, no matter where in the world you lived, operated or hid and either taken back to Israel or given a third eye!
These days, the Israeli’s tend to follow the American doctrine of ‘technology war’ – PGM, hitting a given target that some form of Intel has given, so as to show it on T.V, so as to appease the people back at home.
The problem I find with this is – like American doctrine, it has become so predictable.
Ok it saves Israeli soldiers lives!
Preservation of the servicemen’s lives is one of the greatest things that I respect the IDF for!
But in the end it only does half the job
It is not the ‘head shed’ / the brains of these organizations that are at the launch point of the rockets that are attacking Israel.
The likes of Hamas learned a long time ago how to launch these terror weapons, with the safety of command launch, at a safe distance, that kept them safe.
It’s the poor old Palestinian civilian, who is unfortunately killed or injured when the adjoining building they live in is hit by Israeli counter-fire.
But his is all part of the Hamas big picture and plan
No I like the George Orwell quote of –
‘We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.’
Hell I am tired of some of the countries and dictators of this world hiding behind religion and history, paying for and supplying weapons to these organizations that are nothing but butches, and nothing but terrorist!
Why doesn’t the UN, The Arab League, the EU and the heads of religions come down on these countries and organizations?
Cut off the head that supply, support, training and gives sanctuaries to terrorism.:dev2:
And your terrorist organizations would withier and die.
Hell I would hate to be an Israeli today:o
As to I would hate to be a Palestinian:o
Antarctica is looking good!:confused:
But sticking our heads in the sand is what makes this hate and war go on!!
P.S.
Before everyone hopes onto the band wagon
I am not Jewish
Hell I am not even religious!! (the above being the prim reason for this!!):confused:
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerAt least one got delivered with a fire control radar and radome but it didn’t have the gun. (Read somewhere it would have got a Vulcan).
Thanks for the pics!
I always thought that Vought did some great artist work/drawings!
I too have read somewhere that the production model of the Crusader III was to have been fitted with built in guns.
But I do not think it was the 20mm Vulcan!
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerAt least one got delivered with a fire control radar and radome but it didn’t have the gun. (Read somewhere it would have got a Vulcan).
Thanks for the pics!
I always thought that Vought did some great artist work/drawings!
I too have read somewhere that the production model of the Crusader III was to have been fitted with built in guns.
But I do not think it was the 20mm Vulcan!
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerOn the subject of the XF8U-3, was the proposed production model (F8U-3) to have looked much different to that of the prototype that flew??
Were there any mock-ups or art work of the production model??
Regards
Pioneer
PioneerOn the subject of the XF8U-3, was the proposed production model (F8U-3) to have looked much different to that of the prototype that flew??
Were there any mock-ups or art work of the production model??
Regards
Pioneer
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