LordJimThe RAF has about half a dozen GR7s deployed. Surely this isn’t enought to provide CAS 24/7, yet this is all the RAF could really depoy given current budget restraints etc. How much training in CAS do the RAF boys actually get these days? Have they got the right weaponds for the job? Have enough Apache’s been deployed? I hear that they are doing a good jood but there is the the problem that something cannot be in two places at the same time (Though I am sure the treasury found a way using creative accounting to make it possibe!!)
As for the Jaguar, well the Mk106 was meant to solve the thrust issues but it was done on a shoe string with production and developement happening at t eh same time and it has more bugs the Windows so is not released for operational service. The plane had years of life left and the GR3 upgrade turned it into a first rate performer. If the MOD had simply pruchased the export engine as used by Oman and India the powers that be couldn’t hace used engine probles etc as a reason for early retirement. It would have also freed up the Harriers to work mainly with the RN and provide additional dedicated squadron for CAS.
The Improved DATA Modem on the Jaguar allowed target details to be emaailed to the plane from FACs on the ground and straight in the Nav attack system.
Someday the Gov will realise that their obsession with in year budgets is not compatable with the polisy of have trough life plans, and that whilst they can cancel or reduce a programme overnight it can take years for the fallout to settle or a replacement to be brought on line.
By the way The A-10C is great for CAS and needs to be kept. I have read articles about the use od the SU25 in Afganistan and its effectiveness. IT worked very well against more effective ground fire (remember the US was sending over stingers).
What the Army really needs is UAVs and decent long range artillery. If in range (upto 35 miles) it can respond faster and keep firing until the job is done. More Helocopters are needed and I wouls like to see at least anouth squadron of Merlins purchased as its three engine design is perfect for hot high conditions, can move a good number of troops and would free up the chinooks for cargo haulin etc.
LordJimO take offence at remarks regarding Civil Servants running the Military on a Cost cutting basis. Firstly The Government aka Mr Brown decide how much money should be spent and he relies on non-governmental advisors and others who do see the military as a branch of Tescos. Cilil Servant do not make policy they act upon it. They are an easy target for the media etc who remember Yes Minister and still think Civil Servant are over paid and under worked.
Civil Servant have to some how keep everything moving in the military. they are responible for support, supply etc and without them the militay would grind to a halt. they work closely wiht the military at all levels to try to make the bast of a bad situation. There are reasons why the military is in a downward spiral, becomong smaller with less kit even if it is up tp date. these are simply Mr Brown, Mr Brown and Mr Brown, anf the Governmants policy of just enough to do the job, but which job!!
LordJimHere we go again. Mine is bigger than yours. What are the chances that the F22A and Typhoon will actually be on opposing sides in a shooting war. The UK and US are officially joined at the hip for future military operations, with the UK’s future defence plans aiming to compliment the US. So The F22s achieve air dominance and provide top cover. The Typhoons will be the primary attack platform for any coalition, especailly IF? Tranche 3 is built or earlier planes upgraded to said level.
As for sales at the moment, the Typhoon is becoming the right plane at the right time. It has a far greater support base than the Rafale and has the advantages of economies of scale with substantially more airfames on order. Ir current 4th and 5th generation fighters only the JSF will be used in greater numbers.
IF and I have mentioned this before, the Typhoon partners develpe the Typhoon along the lines of the F15 and a two seat Fighter/attack/recon version eveolves with AESA radar, conformal tanks, in builts designator/FLIR it would be a world beater. Ot could even be a controler for UCAVs wiht the rear seater running the children and the pilot runing the plane.
I firmly believe the Typhoon compliments the F22, more so then the F35. The latter is trying to do too much in one airframe. Tobe relly effective it needs external stores and then bang goes the stealth. Yes it can carry 2 1000lb JDAM internally and that will suffice for low intensity warfare such as Iraq but a major conflict? well we shall see.
Remember numbers count. Who would win and retain control of an area, 4 F22 with AWACS vs 4 times as many SU27/30 or MIG 29 with AWACS. Yes the F22 will get the first shot(s) but given the closing speeds etc it would not be totally one sided. Most nations would be willing to trade numbers in a conflict to reap the rewards of downing a F22 and its pilot. remember the fuss when the F117 was brought down over Serbia.
Stealth has a finite life. Eventually a counter-measure will be developed, increasing the chances of detection.
Well done to BAe Sytems with the order. I believe the Saudis are getting one hell of a plane and if they or expat pilots train to get the best out of it it will provide SA with the most potent in terms of equipment airefore in the region of years to come.
LordJimI annot believe that this subject has decended to this level. If both SeaLordLawrence and Neptune took a step back they would see that they are actually agreeing on 95% if the issue. Technology is designed to enhance the abilities of people yet those people must be trained to use it to realise this potential. A good example would be how Isreali M60 were able to defeat Syrian T72s back in 1982. On paper the T72 was far superior to the M60 but the training of the Isrealis was far superior. Another example would be how 4 RAF Jaguars were able to down 2 F15s at Red Flag in the 1980s with Guns!!!.
Today the US can put a force in the field that is well trained (for conventional warfare) with top of the line equipment and is pretty well unbeatable in a stand up fight, yet has great difficulty dealing with unconventional threats because it having to learn a new set of skills and doesn’t have the technology it needs.
So back to the topic. A type 45 with a RN crew is going to be a damn fine AAW platform. I am sure that the F124 with a German crew will also be but the Tech of the T45 is on paper better and therefore will have the edge in my opinion
LordJimWell as far as topics go, this has to be the least relevant I have read on a Aviation Forum. But to say my piece, to justify a action becausea people who sharedthe same religion lived there thousands of years agon is just palin daft. If we follow this logically well everyboby in the USA has to return to eurooe etc. 3/4 of the population of South America have to do the same. Many in Egypt have to return to Greece and Macedonia. The ethnic Chinese have to leave Malaysia, Singapore etc and Britain is returned to the celts or rather the Scots and Irish.
Isreal like amny other counties in Europe, africa the middle east and so on is a false creation. It does however exist and therefore now has a right to self determination as does Iran, Bosnia, South Africa, Germany etc. The Palestinians like the Kurds and other unfortunately do not have a nation any more. Isreal should return all lands taken in 1967 as these are ‘occupied and Isreal has no claim on them. Jerusalem is claimed by so many that no one nation should lay claim to it. No one in this troubled area is blameless. What should be done is for all nation to withdraw funding and support to all sides and simply see who is left standing. If the parties won’t talk or listen then leave them to it. How many people have died around the world because these people cannot live together? Enough is enough. Give Iran nukes to counter Israel and see what happens, If Israel is faced with odds of 20 to 1 maybe it will see sence ans decide to talk. If the Palestinians are threatens with eradication if they continue their war of terror/jihad will they see sence. This has gone on for far to long.
LordJimI am a fan of both the Typhoon and JSF, though I have a preference for the Typhoon. In my opinion the RAF should concentrate on ensuring it has sufficient Typhoons to replace the aircraft it intends to.
Much is made of ‘Stealth’ and its first strike options, but to date this has never been put fully to the test. Yes the Air Defences in Iraq and the Balcans were substantial but were not latest generation. Engineers have had over a decade to work out counters to Stealth and those countries that have deployed systems that may be able to defeat Stealthy platform would obviously keep quiet.
The UK is tied to the US for future operations, and this is a key fact in deciding what capabilities the UK wants and can afford. We aim to compliment the US. Therefore we can rely on the US ‘Kicking in the front door’, with token support form the UK’s JSF force but the bulk of UK operations will be performed by the Typhoon. It will have the advantage of range, weapons load and speed over the JSF as well as a much greater selection of ordonnance.
As to the costs of each platform, well I can see countries reducing their orders for the JSF as its costs increase. Remember the Cheap, simple day fighter that was the F16. The USAF, RAF and others will want the JSF to be more and more capable. But can than afford this and still buy the numbers they want? I doubt it!
The Future RAF with around 4 JSF squadrons and around 7 Typhoon squadrons on the frontline will be a very capable but much reduced force. It will leave the RAF in a clear No2 position behind the USAF, but as they will be working together, US and UK JSFs complimenting each other and Raptors and Typhoons doing the same, in a convention war nothing or nobody should be able to compete. (Unless you have 100s of Su27s and MIG 29s you want to throw away)
LordJimI have been following this thread from the wings a while now posting once and I am amazed how unprofessional some posters become when their point of view is challenged. This is a discussion forum not a playground and arguements along the lines of “My Dad is bigger than your’s” (sorry for any double meaning that offends).
Anyway I might as well say my piece again;
Tech Transfer: I believe the UK will get all it asks for but not it will be done on the quiet. There has been a substantial 2 way street for tech over the past years especially with BAE Systems own “Skunk” works up at Warton with regards to Stealth, and the work Qinetic have done.
Plan B: Although I would love to see the Rafale flying from the CVF it just will not happen. The UK defence industry has decided that the US is where it wants to be and is actively buying up major US defence contractors. If anything I can see more joint efforts in the future as only the US has an R&D budget large enough to develope the next generation of “Toys”
Merlin: If the best platform is chosen for the repacement of the HH-60 etc it should be the Merlin. There is nothing out there in the same class with regards to size, power, speed, range. Yes other platforms may be better in one or two catagories but no other platform has the whole package. Plus if the US buys the CSAR varient I can see the UK ordering a number as well.
Special Relationship: Regardless of what extremeists say, the US and UK are becoming a single entity when it comes to foreign policy and military action. The UK has based its future plans on the fact that it will be working with the US. The UK is now firmly in the quality verses quantity mindset, aiming to complement the US. But this benefits both parties. Look at the use by US Marines of UK supplies personalk radios during GW2.
Why the fuss: Yes the UK is concerned about tech transfer and such like but a lot of the public posturing is just that. Politicians respond the press announcements, so if the press say that the US is blocking tech transfer then it is only natural that the Politicians start sabre ratling along national lines.
LordJimThanks for all the info. I am not a fan of the way the MOD defines IOC. It seems they are quite happy to recieve equipment that does not yet reach the standard contracted for. A case I know about revolves around the new Mk106 Adour fitted to the Jaguar GR3. The engine was contracted for before it had been proven and trials and manufacture happened concurrently. This was done to keep costs down and speed delivery. It is a hybrid engine using the core of the Adour 871 and the reheat unit from the 811. WE still can’t get the rear end to behave itself even after numerous fixes both in house and from the contractor.
LordJimI think the RN has missed the point when it says that it needs the CVF to allow power projection etc. Yes a carrier is a great way to show the flag, but if you want to project power you need more than aircraft. What the RN needed was a vessel similar to the USN’s Wasp class or its successor, geared withan emphasis on air operations but still retaining its ability to transport troops and material to a trouble spot. If you propositioned equipment for say a regimental battle group on one of these ships together with an airwing of Harriers/JSF, Apaches, Merlin HC2 (navalised) and say a Merlin based AEW&C you have a real force for power projection. Fly out the troops to their eqipment in times of need and given the west technical superiority you have an awful lot of firepower and flexibility siting off someones coast. Build three of these and one can be at sea ready to move to where it is needed quickly. For full blown operations, having two of these vessels on site plus the amphibious group and air deployable forces available, and you have a reinforced division available with intergral fixed and rotary air support. Now that is power projection
LordJimOk here’s my contribution to this debate and I have thrown in a few ringers.
1. Lightning
2. Su37 Berkut
3. Sea Vixen
4. TSR2
5. Rafale
6. Typhoon
7. Hunter
8. Starfighter
9. Couger
10. Sabre
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