4X-ILWrong. As Erez said. You can add nothing to that fighter without data from LM. Your weapons-system computer will not cooperate and refuse to accept that simply. Similar like your “Windows XP” will not accept new hardware without the correct software.
By that, the ELTA radar is no practical option for the JSF either.
I have no idea from what knowledge you conclude this claim, but it is just not true.
Same as we were able ( if the US would’ve agreed ) to replace the APG-68 in our F-16I to the ELTA radar, we can do it on the JSF.
its all up to the US.
and I already said that it must be with the blessing of LM.
4X-ILBecause it’s probably going to be better.
Probably is still a ” might be “
4X-ILNo, he meant that Israel doesn’t have access to the advanced Swedish-American AESA tech. For now, anyway.
Elta got its own tech of Airborne radars using AESA.
why would they need access to a Swedish one?
4X-ILUSA has one more radar design in the works often forgotten about. It’s the Swedish-American AESA built by Raytheon and Ericsson Microwave Systems.
And it’s unlikely Israel would gain access to it any other way than as part of a complete jet. The technology used to build it will be transferred to the US for new radars that will significantly outperform existing ones.
Why? Because Ericsson is reducing the size of the T/R modules with their patented technology and the net effect will be many more modules in the same space. Especially important for the Gripen fighter with limited space and why AESA is not already offered on this jet. With current tech the antenna would be too weak. You could say this is the next generation AESA and the manufacturing technique will stay in the hands of Sweden-USA for a long time.
For system integration and flight evaluations on the Gripen jet there has been demonstrators using existing Raytheon antennas. The program started in mid 1990’s in Sweden and Raytheon came online in 2001. The same year the US made Sweden part of the Defense Trade Security Initiative. Israel is still out in the cold on that one.
I completely lost you here.
Are you saying Elta of Israel doesn’t have the AESA technology?
cause I really didn’t catched you here.
4X-ILapart from that,
the ELM-2052 is an Export version Radar.
It is known Israel is always saving to it self the best top-of-the-art systems, and doesn’t export those, and keep it for exlusive use.
4X-ILI believe you are confusing between the F-35 and the F-16I. The EL/M-2052 is still under development, and I don’t believe it will be better than the APG-81.
As for weapons integration – the good ole days of just sticking a missile to a plane are over. Today every weapon you want to integrate needs its own software integrated in the plane in order to function. Without the Americans giving Israel the source codes of the plane, which seems close to impossible, no Israeli weapon could be used on the JSF.
Why am I confusing?
As far as I know, the ELM-2052 is only the current applicant for the JSF,
but you have to remember! untill Israel will have to decide what radar we want on it ( if we will be allowed ) we have few good years to do that! but the APG-81 doesn’t going to change!.
when ELTA will bring their’s new radar, this one will be old news.
Of course you’re right about the missiles, but you havn’t understood me currectly.
I meant, that the US will have no problem with letting us * the option * to use our own missiles.
missiles much more physical thing than Radar, or EW systems, and I can see no reason why we wont be able to use our own missiles like with the F-16I and F-15I.
4X-IL1) Israel is developing its own AESA radar, so replacing the radar is an option in theory, but I doubt if the APG-81 won’t be preferred.
2) EW gear is certainly an issue.
3) Don’t think so, but again, possible in theory.
4) Probably not.
5) The HMS is already Israeli (Elbit).
6,7,8) That’s probably the main concern. Israel wants the Pythons, Derby, Spice and other equipment to be integrated to the F-35.
The RADAR is the main problem with the whole deal…
We want the ELTA radar to replace the American radar, cheapest, and for now, the Elta radar performance are better.
2. EW Systems is the second biggest thing Israel want to change, It is very important for us to put our own EW systems.
I have no doubt whatsovever one of the major deals is Israel to install Elisra’s EW systems, that was said to be the most advanced in the world ( the one installed on the AH-64D ).
3. Mission computer is not a real important thing like Radar, but Elbit placed their new specially desgined Mission computer for the Israeli AH-64D ( Helicom ), that help the pilot to run the Helicopter much better.
4. Of COURSE! ELTA’s DataLink like the EL/K-1891 is a must have for any Israeli aerial asset to be complete with the IDF sattelite network!
5. Elbit’s as you said
Most of Israel’s missiles are already fit to the places they need to mount to,
Python series can be mounted to AIM-9 places without any modifications, and I’m sure they doesn’t really care about external things like missiles and bombs
4X-ILBut Erez you’re mixing up here very different things!
Removing a phisical thing in the Mirage and placing a fuel tank instead got nothing to do with Specially desgined systems!
When we say that our systems are designed for our special needs, we always give the desert area of southern Israel as an example, do you think its realistic? of course its not, all new systems can work same in the desert and over rain forests, but the fact still remains, that Every single System Israel switched in its aircraft, WAS better than the oppositely US system.
the Israeli EW systems we just placed on our new GulfStream 5 ” Nahshun “, doesn’t even exists in the US, not to mention operational in the USAF.
Israel AEW&C Boeing 707 with the Phalcon Radar ( Made by Elta ) on it have response time of 2 seconds, oppose to more than 40 of the E-3A, and have much longer range and capabillities than any USAF AWACS aircraft currently operational.
Comparing Israel’s mobile EW systems to the US’s systems who are currently deployed in Iraq is a joke!
Those are only few examples! but there’re tons more!
It doesn’t matter if you have more money, when you have good brains, exacly as you said, you get the job done.
Did RAFAEL sent the Python 5 to regular long-testing like any other AIM-9 missile? have they spent dozens of millions on testing it? no they didn’t, but in the first test it was already been proven that the Python 5 is the best Close-combat Air-to-Air missile in the world.
Money is not always a factor, and there is not better example for it than Israel.
4X-IL4X-IL – First of all, everything is arguable…
I’m an Israeli just like you, and while I agree that most of the systems we put on our aircraft are better suited to our airforce’s needs, it doesn’t always says that every avionic system we produce is better than its American/European counterpart. Every airforce has its own needs and solutions for them.The problem with the fact that the Americans aren’t letting us “Israelize” the F-35 is not because the Israeli systems are necessarily better, it’s because these systems will allow us to use the most out of the plane’s platform in our own special enviorment of combat.
What you just said doesn’t make any sense.
The Americans doesn’t want us to ” suck ” at battle.
Not letting us place our own systems because they don’t want us to do a better use with them doesn’t make any sense.
there is 1 good reason for the US to disallow us to put israeli systems.
They know that If they wll agree, we have now few years to start and develop the best systems we can, to put on this new fighter, and those systems will be competition to their’s.
I didn’t said ALL israel’s Avionics systems are better than the US’s! don’t get me wrong!
I said, and perfectly explained myself, that Israel make SPECIFIC systems, exacly for what you said – our special needs.
But there is no such thing as ” Special needs “, using this combanation is other word for ” Our’s better, and we want that, and not yours “, thats simple as that.
Israel make specific systems for our assest, while the US is making thousands of systems for all kind of stuff, which some of them they doesn’t even use.
When you put alot of work on a small number of projects, you get a more quality project.
When you put small number of work on each project, while having thousands of them, you get less quality, thats how it works.
Good example – the F-16I Radar,
we wanted to put our own, which in any way you look at it, every detail in the Elta radar was better than the AGP-68 we finally have on our F-16I, its all because of competition, and money.
good example for Israel’s success – India, and specially the SU-30MKI, and the missiles program we have with them.
You can take the AH-64D of Israel, and the AH-64D of the US Army, and see how different they are, and how much the Israeli version is better.
4X-ILHere we go again :rolleyes:
Dude its a fact, its not something you can argue on.
Look on Israeli AH-64D and on US’s.
its like comparing 2 whole different Heli’s
4X-ILany system Israel is placing on it’s aircrafts ( F-16I F-15I F-15ABCD and AH-64DI for example ) are better than any US avionics systems with the same purpose.
US big companies are puting small amount of work workers on each system, and producing ALOT of them.
Israel is puting alot of work on each system, and produce much less, but those who we do make, are better.
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