When 747-400 came out in the first place (in 1989), the closest competitor was MD-11. 602 cm wide, 61,7 m long. Smaller than B777-200, and range 12 200 km.
747-400 has better range than MD-11, bigger capacity and lower costs per seat. But if an airline has requirements which MD-11 could not meet (and therefore the airline needed 747-400), this does not mean A340-300, B777-200ER or B777-300 might not meet those requirements.
The market is telling me that if you get much beyond 300-350, the orders start falling off….I think this is precisely what you have identified with the 777-300 non-ER. The A330 is perfectly sized for the current market IMHO.
But then why is 777-300ER so popular?
The 777-200ER seems about right.
BA bought those instead of more 747-400s and I beleive several airlines went for the 772ER to replace their 747s as they got old.
But the official range of B777-200ER from
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/pf/pf_200product.html
is 14 200 km.
B777-200ER has 412 deliveries and just 19 orders. A330-200, with clearly smaller capacity and shorter range, has 370 deliveries and 163 orders.
What makes A330-200 so much better than either B777-200ER or any model of 767?
Sorry that I haven’t seen the numbers for 773 non ER vs 742 or 743 but roughly speaking the 777-300ER carries about 90% of the load of a 744, yet burns 26% less fuel. I remember seeing those numbers somewhere and don’t know if the fuel was block or per seat. I would imagine the ratios would be similar for the 773 non ER vs 742/743.
IMHO the reason that more airlines aren’t replacing 747’s with 773’s is that they simply don’t want that big of an airplane. The 773 is still too big.
I should point clarify something I said incorrectly earlier. The B767 opened more non-traditional hub to point service than it did point to point. I am sorry that I said otherwise. A more accurate way to describe the fragmentation brought about by ETOPS and the success of the B767 (which paved the way for the 777 and 330 btw)
If 773 is still too big (620 cm wide, 73,9 m long) then what is the right size?
777-200 (620 cm wide, 63,7 m long)?
Airbus 330-300 (564 cm wide, 63,6 m long)?
Airbus 330-200 (564 cm wide, 58,8 m long)?
Boeing 787-800/300 (577 cm wide, 56,7 m long)?
Boeing 787-900 (577 cm wide, 62,8 m long)?
Airbus 350-800 (596 cm wide, 60,7 m long)?
Airbus 350-900 (596 cm wide, 67,0 m long)?
Airbus 350-1000 (596 cm wide, 74,0 m long)?
Boeing 767-400 (503 cm wide, 61,4 m long)?
Boeing 767-200 (503 cm wide, 48,5 m long)?
I am trying to spot what the problem is with B777-300 non-ER.
Yes, it is big. Longer than 747, actually. The main deck can have 550 seats – a Japanese airline flies over 520 seats on 777-300. It is still slightly smaller than 747-400 or 747-300 with their big upper decks, but quite comparable to the short upper deck 747-100 or 747-200.
And the maximum range of 747-100 is 9800 km. Shorter than 777-300 non-ER. 747-300 range is something like 12 400 km.
How do the costs of a 777-300 non-ER compare against 747-200 on the same route? And if airlines want to decrease plane size, why is 777-300 non-ER not a popular 747-300 replacement?
Nominal range:
A330-200 at:
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a330a340/a330-200/specifications/
range (with max passengers) 12 500 km
A330-300 at:
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a330a340/a330-300/specifications/
range (with max passengers) 10 500 km
777-300 at:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/pf/pf_300product.html
maximum range 11 135 km.
Sales outcome:
B777-200 non-ER: 88 delivered, still offered but no orders.
B777-300 non-ER: 60 delivered, still offered but no orders.
A330-300: 284 delivered since 1995 or so, 130 orders.
A330-200: 370 delivered since 1998 or so, 183 orders.
A summary
A summary of maiden flights (incomplete!):
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flight-international/2009/12/first-flights-in-2009.html
Engines found!
Comac chose CFM Leap-X for the import engines of 919, so Leap-X shall be built.
747 has already changed wingspan (-300 to -400). The only thing which 747 had unchanged from -100 to -400 and which will be different on -800 is length.
So the last -400 belongs together with the last SP.
Second frame flies!
What shall happen next?
Maiden flight of ZA003, or Type Inspection Authorization?
787 testing
Since the first flight thread is longish, and I cannot see this article quoted there, looking to the test programme, an article:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/W787PLAN121809.xml
What shall the next news be?
ZA002 maiden flight?
Sorry, can’t agree with that. I believe block costs are very important. If they weren’t all airlines would be flying biggest airplane available everywhere.
They are important. I thought that what was being stated is that 787 being 20% better than 767 in block rather than seat costs is “nonsense” in the sense of being incredible rather than “nonsense” in the sense of being unimportant.
I guess per seat fuel, because all else is non-sense. The heaviest B767 is 190t MTOW,
No, 204.
the B787 is 30t heavier from the start.
The B787 offers to put 9-abreast in economy and many airlines will do that.
Like they do on DC-10, Tristar and 777. But 787 is narrower.
I think KLM and Finnair are the last operators of Pax MD-11, while Pax DC-10 are no more
Pax DC-10 are alive and well, and planned to continue for several years. Which is why one of the Biman frames is being cannibalized to support the other four:
http://www.biman-airlines.com/aboutus/fleet_info.asp
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Biman-Bangladesh/McDonnell-Douglas-DC-10-30/1621587/L/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Biman-Bangladesh/McDonnell-Douglas-DC-10-30/1161393/L/
The A380 also has lots of advancements. In case of the B787 (and the A350) I think they jumped on the “advanced materials” band waggon a bit too quick, sometimes I see no specific reason to use CFRP.
Only a fraction of the quoted “20%” (which is actually versus a B767-300 on a long range mission, versus A330 or B777 the difference is single digit percentage, mission dependent of course)
How many percent compared to DC-10 or Tristar ;-)?
787-800 is actually a close competitor to A330-200. B777, even B777-200, is considerably bigger, while all 767, even 767-400, is rather smaller. But Tristar and DC-10 are comparable….
is due to savings in structural weight. The B787 (and the A350) have annoyingly long range and suffer from that (on shorter missions). The B787-8 could fly from London to NY, turn around over Manhatten and fly back, and still have reserves left.
Let´s see how much range it has in view of being overweight and having too high fuel burn.