Showtime 100It is possible they have some aircraft design already and a program going on but i feel part is propaganda, generals usually say we will but engineers are not so optimistic, a nation like Russia and the US have taken decades to build a fifth generation, so far China has not shown it has most of technologies, Russia has shown the Su-35BM with supercruise and super agility, the US showed the F-15 with TVC but in China`s case is only rethoric with almost no evidence.
In my opinion they are probably going to build the J-XX fighter for sure but it won`t be inducted as fast as the general says.To me it sounds more like the Chinese do not want to be left behind since the PAK FA will fly soon and they need something to say we are not behind
Dude, we are talking abt a high ranking deputy PLAAF commander and not some tom dick harry news reporter or engineer who just say it for the sake of not being left behind. If his words failed to materialise. His head will roll. That is Chinese style. If u say it and failed to carry out on time. U must bear all responsible.
Just like what matt mention, it is only he is confident and the fact, he consulted the trustworthy engineer and witness some of the progress before he make this kind of comment.
China is so far the country taken shortest time to ahieve H-bomb from first nuclear bomb. For example A take how much time to complete a project, does not mean B will equally need same amount of time to complete that particular project.
Showtime 100It will be intresting to see the JF17. Will it have a new camo? IFR? Will it have other weapons? Sofar the weapon testing should have ended by now. There were news bits about the first squadron to become operation before the first flight in december. A jf17 with 2 Ra’ad and 2 BVR will surely be handy to counter terrorism from all sides. Something very intresting to be exported to nations with low budget or political strings.
Does it mean Pakistan already intergrate the PL-12 into their JF-17? The first 50 batch is KJL-7 radar. No way other country weapon is able to be intergrated.
Showtime 100Article from Strategy Page
China Struggles To Build An F-22
November 17, 2009The Chinese Air Force has announced that it has a F-22 type aircraft ready to make its first flight within a year. The Chinese believe this aircraft will enter service within ten years. U.S. intelligence believes the Chinese are nowhere near this kind of capability. But given the quantity and quality of data Chinese hackers have been stealing in the past five years, it’s possible that they have much of the American technology that makes the F-22 and F-35 possible. Some believe that the Chinese also have a F-35 type design in the works as well.
American intel analysts believe that Chinese aviation technology (both design and manufacturing) is not yet capable of producing F-22/F-35 class aircraft. Given the experience with the first two Chinese designed and manufactured jet fighters (J-10 and JF-17), there is much doubt that China is capable of making the leap to F-22 class fighters. The big bottleneck is jet engine technology.
For two decades now, China has been developing the manufacturing technology for aircraft engines, the key component of any high performance aircraft. So far, China has been unable to create the manufacturing technology and personnel skills that are needed to make the engines for their most advanced jet fighters. For example, China is a major customer for Russian RD93 engines (originally designed for the MiG-29), and has bought over a thousand of them. The RD93 engines currently cost about $2.5 million each.
China has been developing a similar (apparently identical) engine to the RD93, the WS-13. Actually, this effort is being aided by Russia, which is selling China technology needed for the manufacture of key engine components. Russia isn’t happy about this, because they don’t want competition in the low cost jet engine market. Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians are making the best of a bad situation. China says the WS-13 is nearly ready for service. Maybe, maybe not. Recently, China ordered another hundred RD93s. Building high performance military jet engines is difficult, and China has had problems mastering this kind of stuff. Not that they will not eventually acquire the skills, but until they do, they need the Russian made RD93s. Officially, more RD93 are being bought because China cannot produce enough of their WS-13s.
Chinese engineers also thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, was meant for the Chinese J-10 fighter, which entered service two years ago. But the Chinese Air Force was not satisfied with the reliability or performance of the WS10A, and have ordered another hundred AL31Fs from Russia, in order to continue building J-10s. Meanwhile, Russian efforts to build an improved AL31 for their own F-22 competitor, have run into serious problems. Will the Chinese suddenly do better than their tutors?
The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn’t until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine.
The 13 ton JF-17, which uses the RD93, is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. It was developed in cooperation with Pakistan. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F-16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Most of the JF-17 electronics (in the Pakistani version) are Western, with Italian firms being major suppliers. The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of 55,000 feet. China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped.
Source: China Struggles To Build An F-22
If the PLAAF does field a 5th Gen fighter, sometime between 2015-2025, how many do you think they would induct into squadron service? Most likely they would be reserved for their top guns, or aces, or honchos, or whatever you wanna call ’em.
By that time, the USAF would have been fielding the F-22C variant of the Raptor. Japan, Israel and Australia would have been foreign Raptor operators by then.
LOL.. Which 10 yrs old kid wrote this? Strategy Page??? Amateur aviation webpage
Showtime 100http://www.defencetalk.com/pakistan-jf-17-fighter-to-roll-out-23033/
ISLAMABAD: The first state of the art JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter plane produced in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra will roll out on Monday.
This will kick start a new era in Pak-China relationship, and aviation industry, an official source told APP here Tuesday. Both China as well as PAF attach a lot of importance to this project which is materializing after hectic and laborious efforts spread over almost a decade, he said.
The PAC has generated all the capability to produce the aircraft locally for its onward delivery to PAF besides materializing purchase orders from abroad.
The JF-17 Thunder a new generation, light-weight, all weather, day/night multi-role fighter aircraft with glass cockpit, hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls and efficient man-machine interface will ensure a minimal pilot workload.
The maximum speed of Mach 1.6 and a high thrust-to-weight ratio will enable it to perform well in an air defence role. An ability to carry short- as well as long-range air-to-air missiles lends the aircraft a first shot capability.
In the surface attack role, a variety of weapons – conventional as well as precision-guided, a sophisticated avionics suite along with accurate weapon delivery system, ensure higher mission success rate.
An effective ECM suite will greatly enhance survivability of the platform. Its anticipated air-to-air refuelling capability will provide the JF-17 with more loiter time to safeguard the frontiers and the ability to deliver the required punch at distance.
It will replace the ageing fleets of A-5s, F-7Ps and the Mirages in the PAF inventory thus fulfiling a multi-role task.
Showtime 100Yes they should opt for something like Gripen-NG in numbers of 1 to 2 squadron, instead of opting for more MKM or SHornet.
Gripen-NG? I thought the engine is american? I think Malaysia wanted to do away everything with US stuff. Gripen is no doubt a good plane but the fact Sweden failure to have 100% indigenous plane appear to be stumbling block for some of its sales.
As for MKM, I think Malaysia wanted something cheaper to supplement its existing MKM fleet and make up its number. RMAF do not have a huge budget to support so many MKM.
Showtime 100All three of these Eagles did. 😎
Oh, here’s another:
Thanks for pointing out.. Nice take off but looks like it needed a longer run way than J-10 to achieve that take off.
J-10 is sharp and quick and remember its a single engine fighter although its lighter than Eagle..
I have no doubt Typhoon and Rafale able to ahieve same as J-10.
Showtime 100PAF’s First Block 52 F-16D Takes To The Skies
It may be recalled that on October 13 Lockheed Martin had rolled out the first of 18 new Block 50/52 F-16C/D M-MRCAs being produced for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in a ceremony that was attended, among others, by the PAF’s Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman. The aircraft order is designated as Peace Drive I and it raises the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to date to 58. The PAF received its first of 40 Block 15 F-16A/Bs in 1982. The Peace Drive I order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofans. The first aircraft–a tandem-seat F-16D–will be delivered to the US government (as agent for Pakistan in the Foreign Military Sales process) next month, with the remainder following in 2010. Joining them by late 2011 (through to 2016) will be the first of up to 70 AL-31FN turbofan-powered FC-20 single-engined M-MRCAs from China, which will be ordered in two successive batches, with the first batch comprising 36 single-seaters and four tandem-seaters, along with a related weapons package that will include PGMs like LT-2, LT-3, LS-6, and FT-1/2/3/5 guided-bombs, and YJ-99 supersonic anti-radiation missiles. The FC-20 will also be capable of carrying two Ra’ad 350km-range air-launched subsonic cruise missiles.—Prasun K. Sengupta
Can we trust this blogspot? :confused:
Showtime 100Makes a lot of sense. To structure their AF around SU-30 & FC-1. So all their eggs are in not one basket.
But haven’t their relations improved with the US in recent days? With Malays and Indonesian are already flying Russian fighters, I wonder how eager the US would be to further lose its authority over these two by letting them fall into chinese sphere?
Once bitten, twice shy. Ask Pakistan..
American policy is just like weather. U maybe good friends with him today. Suddenly , it changes its mood again on next day, u are in trouble.
Btw, Indonesian Aceh rebel problem may rise again. I don’t think Indonesia armed forces want to take that risk of running out of engines and weapons when fighting rebel.
Showtime 100Following the recent news about FC-20 preliminary contract between China and Pakistan, and Malays expressing interest in seeking China’s Logistic Support For Sukhoi Fighters, its the turn of the Indonesians. China surely appears to be gradually gaining a place amongst world’s big arms exporters.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/11/13/ri-purchase-trainer-attack-aircraft-russia-china.html
RI to purchase trainer, attack aircraft from Russia, China
The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Fri, 11/13/2009 8:58 AM | NationalIndonesia will purchase new trainer/light attack aircraft from Russia and China as part of an effort to revitalize its primary defense system, says newly sworn-in Air Force chief of staff Vice Marshal Imam Safaat.
He said the new jets, consisting the Yak-130 from Russia and the FTC-2000 Mountain Eagle from China, would replace the squadrons of British Hawk Mk-53 jets and American OV-10 Bronco.
The Air Force has 20 Hawk Mk-53, and eight turboprop-driven OV-10 Bronco aircraft that are around 30 years old.
“We plan to replace them in the next couple of years. We have done feasibility studies for the purchases, and will propose them to the government soon,” Imam said after the handover ceremony at Halim Perdanakusumah Air Force Base in East Jakarta. Imam replaced Marshal Subandrio.
It would be the first time Indonesia purchases warplanes from China and the second from Russia after the United States embargoed the supply of spare parts for its F-5E Tiger II and F-16 Fighting Falcon jet fighters and C-130 Hercules transport planes in 1999 due to human rights abuses mainly East Timor………….
Iman said the military aircraft had to be replaced soon because the Air Force had used the existing planes for more than 30 years.
Imam said further that the Indonesian Military had also planned to replace the old F-5E Tiger II jets. “We expect to replace them by 2013,” he told The Jakarta Post.
Imam declined to mention the prices of the new aircraft, saying he had not yet discussed it with the government.
“They are expensive,” he said, adding the aircraft would be purchased using foreign aid.
FC-1 is the choice for Indonesia Air Force in 2013.
Single engine, economical price tag and free from American clutches.. Chinese aircraft, Russian engine. 😀
Showtime 100found it after a fair bit of digging…..
F-15E Flight Demonstration
It seems J-10 acceleration and pitch up is much steeper and faster compare to F-15E demonstrator.
Showtime 100I seem to recall a video of an F-15K with a more impressive take off roll not too long ago. I’ll see if I can’t find it.
When u can find it, then we talk abt it,ok? :rolleyes:
Showtime 100When assessing flying capabilities of J10, it’d be good to check this film.
As for electronics and radar, many components are “made in China” anyway, so it’s difficult to tell who’s more advanced, although I’d go with Gripen mainly due possibly better integration and maturity. Gripen’s here 20+ years, while J10 is 5.
(How can I directly link a film from YouTube here? Thx.)
I think u need this video to prove better. Short take off and steep climb immediately.. I am waiting for what type of combat plane can match that performaces..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VwTbc8IEBU
(Remember both plane is in empty loaded mode so come don’t in and bit*h abt J-10 is empty load so can easily do that.. F-16 and Mirage 2000 with empty load can never do that.)
*Edit* Added Gripen take off video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcpJUt9v_8A
U be the judge who is better 🙂
Showtime 100If they are actually any good…
If u compare them to gripen, the price is more attractive.
Showtime 100By Farhan Bokhari in Islamabad
Published: November 10 2009 08:16 | Last updated: November 10 2009 18:29
China has agreed to sell Pakistan at least 36 advanced fighter jets in a deal worth as much as $1.4bn, according to Pakistani and western officials.
Beijing will supply two squadrons of the J-10 fighter jet in a preliminary agreement that could lead to more sales, said a Pakistani official. The official said Pakistan might buy “larger numbers” of the multi-role aircraft in the future, but dismissed reports that Islamabad had signed a deal to purchase as many as 150 of the fighter jets.
“China is developing a real capacity to produce and export its arms. At one point, the Chinese were dependent on imported Russian technology, but obviously China has advanced significantly beyond those days,” said Marika Vicziany, Professor of Asian studies at Monash University in Melbourne.
“This agreement should not simply be seen in the narrow context of Pakistan’s relations with China,” said Abdul Qayyum, a retired Pakistani general.
“There is a wider dimension. By sharing its advanced technology with Pakistan, China is … also saying to the world that its defence capability is growing rapidly.”
AVIC emerges as a big exporter
China’s Aviation Industry Corporation has undergone so many restructurings during the past decade that it has become almost impossible for outsiders to understand its structure. But one thing is clear: the $21.7bn (€14.5bn, £13bn) group is rapidly emerging as a big military goods exporter, writes Kathrin Hille in Beijing.
Pakistan, where AVIC is seeking to sell 36 of its J-10 fighter jets, is an old partner. But AVIC is also marketing light fighter jets to Indonesia and the Philippines. It has attracted interest as an alternative to Russia in eastern Europe. Several African countries are also on the customer list for heavy equipment such as helicopters, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.
Since the group is also involved in China’s civilian aircraft programme and gives only total revenue figures, the scope of its defence-related exports is unknown. But experts believe that the remerger late last year of two parts split out in 1998 is directed at creating a bigger player that will be more capable of competing internationally.
China has supplied Pakistan with fighter jets for more than three decades. But Beijing has seldom supplied Pakistan’s air force with advanced fighter aircraft. Islamabad turned to France for Mirage fighter jets in the 1970s and to the US for F-16s in the 1980s.
Pakistan has a fleet of 45 F-16s built by Lockheed Martin. The Pakistani air force is using the fighter jet in its campaign against militants in South Waziristan.
The US has agreed to sell Islamabad another 18 new F-16s and Pakistani officials also expected the US to supply about a dozen older versions of the aircraft.
Over the past decade, China and Pakistan have collaborated on building their first jointly produced advanced fighter jet, known as the JF-17, or “Thunder”. Pakistan is expected to roll out the first domestically built version of the Thunder within weeks.
Pakistan’s air force plans to purchase at least 250 of the Thunder fighters over the next four to five years.
Experts see the new Pakistani focus on China as evidence that Beijing is trying to expand its military power.
“Countries like Iran and possibly some of the Middle Eastern countries would be keen to deal with China if they can find technology which is comparable to the west,” said one western official in Islamabad.
“Pakistan will work as the laboratory to try out Chinese aircraft. If they work well with the Pakistani air force, others will follow.”
36 planes for 1.4billions… Estimate one plane cost almost USD 40million.. That is quite a bargain.
Showtime 100http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2009-11/09/content_12418636.htm
to
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2009-11/09/content_12418636_3.htm(Article in Chinese, dated 9 November 2009.)
The only foreigner whom the captions specify is the Pakistani.
Maybe those of us who have a fetish for air force uniforms, will vis-ident the other 31 foreign air force uniforms? XD
But that cockpit is J-11B,right?
Republic of Singapore Air Force.
This one easy to tell. DPRK air force
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