thing is, they have bought the Rafale, just as the customisations they wanted and support structure as well (they had to, as for any aircraft)… building another type would require to buy/build the support structure for it as well… while they’ve invested in the Rafale already, buying another batch would cost significantly less than that initial buy that included support and development costs.

Now, as far as “make in India” goes.. I’m still puzzled by the way it went with the MMRCA. Dassault proposed to do it at a given price, under precise conditions, and won.. and then, during negotiations, the price went through the roof… Now, one has to wonder how it could happen… what changes were asked from Dassault to raise the price so much? Some here hinted that Dassault gave a price while omitting plenty of theings, opr proposing to do it in a way that was clearly not the one it was required to do.. ok, but: if it was Dassault not accounting for plenty of stuff supposed to be included, and not respecting the the rules, one has to wonder what the Indian guys were doing to accept an offer that had so many things messed up?

Again, strangely, with the offsets, Dassault teamed with Reliance Group to invest in India… Strangely, it is the very same group that they proposed to make the rafales in India with, and, as some said here, has no business in aviation in the same time… Curious choice for a company that would have to deliver, who, btw makes highly praised business jets and one of the finest fighter aircraft in the world, the very one that won the MMRCA btw…

I’d say they (Dassault) most certainly know a few things about building aircraft that pretty much everybody here does not know, and they have made their choice… If MMRCA understood that the fighters HAD to be made by HAL (which seemed to pose a problem), IMO India, once MMRCA cancelled, would be well inspired to propose Dassault to make another offer as teh one they proposed for the MMRCA, taking into account that some stuff in it are already paid for (training and support infrastructure) and see what they can propose now. Their offer may very well be quite competitive today… even more than a few years back

As per some reports (again one can never be sure about these reports), Dassault left out some scope from their response and that was only added later, which added to the cost. But then again, the fly-away cost of the Rafale that has been reported was pretty much as expected- ~$ 91 million per unit flyaway. But add all the other things that are needed to train personnel, operate and sustain the fleet and the weapons and you have a big big bill.

The funny thing is that Dassault back then claimed that HAL couldn’t build the Rafale without spending thousands of additional man-hours per jet due to the lower automation levels and the learning curve associated with building a new jet. And that would lead to the Rafale being even costlier to build in India than in France.

Now, if they make an un-solicited or even solicited offer to build Rafale jets in India, they’ll somehow have to prove that an even less experienced private sector partner will somehow magically scale up to build Rafales in India at a competitive price.

It’s simple.. They have defined a twin-engined type which they intended to build under a license. After lengthy negotiations they have found out that it’s actually much more expensive than originally anticipated.. In the desired standard, Rafale is way too costly even as a direct buy, let alone considering required investments for a new production line at HAL.. Now they’re hoping to get something smaller/cheaper..

Precisely.

I am a happy owner of John Golan’s book, the exact values are: 6940 kg empty weight, 19280 kg maximum takeoff weight and 2720 kg of internal fuel.

Great. I just ordered a copy as well. If those are the numbers then it is indeed quite astonishing to see such a high MTOW.

The Lavi was quite a bit larger than the Tejas and FC-1 designs. As John Golan mentioned in his book, it had a 10% lighter empty weight than a F-16 Block 30, whose empty weight was 8290 lbs. Which gives us ~7400 kgs empty weight for the Lavi. That’s ~800 kgs heavier empty than the Tejas or FC-1.

And as his blog post on the Lavi mentioned, it was designed with range in mind, and hence a lot more internal fuel

Su-30MKIs deployed to Thanjavur Air Base, in Tamil Nadu.

Satellite imagery confirms that the Indian Air Force (IAF) continues to forward deploy advanced, frontline fighters to its southeast flank. Given India’s threat environment, it’s a positive sign that the South Asian giant may have made headway addressing issues spotlighted by Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar last year regarding the aircraft’s Saturn AL-31FP engines. Earlier this year, Parrikar clarified that engine issues meant that the fighters broke down fairly regularly.

Satellite imagery, acquired by DigitalGlobe and Planet Labs, indicates the presence of the SU-30MKI Flanker H multirole fighters at Tamil Nadu’s Thanjavur airbase. The airbase, subordinate to India’s Southern Air Command (SAC), remains an important deployment location to project power from the southern peninsula. Thanjavur is the only airbase in India’s SAC where observers routinely see the frontline fighters deployed.

..

The satellite imagery, some of which is available in Google Earth, shows a detachment of seven advanced Flankers parked on Thanjavur’s northwest apron. They arrived at the airbase in August and were previously spotted on space snapshots in January. The latest flight departed the airbase by mid-September, Planet Labs imagery shows. The Thanjavur airbase is subordinate to India’s SAC, a command whose operations stretch from Lakshadweep in the Arabian Sea to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal. Given the growing importance of projecting force beyond India’s borders, the airbase was included in the IAF’s 15-year modernization program and publicized in 2005. Previous commercial imagery monitored the refurbishment of the now dual-runway air station since work began in earnest in 2011. Two years later, Thanjavur was inaugurated featuring a new parking apron, expanded turnarounds, taxiways, new radar and a lengthened runway to enable the take-off and landing of heavier aircraft. The latter is particularly notable, as India responds to natural disasters at home and develops a greater interest in providing regional humanitarian assistance.

To date, construction activity continues at the airbase with additional support buildings almost complete. The two triple-fence secure structures, typically erected near hardened munitions storage areas or aircraft dispersal areas, are likely associated with the airfield’s weapons handling activity. The structures stand at least 1000 meters apart and represent another sign that India is preparing to ready the airbase to support the advanced fighters. According to Indian press reporting, a Flanker squadron will be relocated permanently to the southeastern state by FY 2017-2018.
..

Mig-29 upgrade
Mirage 200 upgrade
Rafale
FGFA
SU30 upgrade
Gripen or F16 “make in India”
LCA
AMCA

How is this possible for India ? This doesn’t make any sense to me to have so much platform in inventory even though some will progressively retire but still…

I can’t believe every program above will go as advertised as today.

the only advantage that this does offer is that there is no way that a single country can sanction India and ground most of the fleet.

And this is all the more reason why a private sector entity needs to be brought in to ease the workload on HAL and also bring in competition. Apart from the ones you’ve mentioned, there is the Jaguar DARIN 3 upgrade, Hawk production, HJT-36 development and production (if it enters service), HTT-40 development and testing program and the 3 different helicopter programs. MiG-29UPG upgrade is being handled by 11 BRD of the IAF, so that is one program that HAL is not handling.

And another FG article that basically states that Pakistan made it a pre-condition for its participation that China also commit to the aircraft. This was common knowledge, that the PAF need was more urgent, that they would be the launch customer while the PLAAF focused on getting the J-10. And there are articles around the web where PAF officials have stated that China will buy the JF-17/FC-1.