Which doesn’t change the fact that it is usually (small orders like P-8 being an exception) a terrible system that maximises vendor leverage for subsequent orders. Hardly a habit that PM “Make in India” Modi should be applauded for upholding.

I do believe it’s possible that further Rafale orders will be held as an option against problems/delays with FGFA (although it’s hardly an ideal substitute, is it?) but that is a very thin silver lining to be considered against the immediate idiocy of inducting yet another platform in low unit numbers with high fixed setup costs and ongoing unique training and logistics requirements.

I don’t say that its a good system. But the procurement has been working that way for quite some time now and there must be reasons for it- perhaps getting approvals from the MoF is easier when the total budget is lower than a stipulated amount, perhaps the notoriously slow bureaucracy moves faster when the amounts are somewhat smaller..I’m not sure..but this simply follows a precedent that has been set. And once the equipment makes its entry into service, follow-on orders are quickly placed and more are ordered till you get to the numbers you originally wanted.

As for introductory costs, those remain whether you buy 36 or 63. Many are recurring and would scale up when your purchase numbers go up. Some would be fixed and those will not have to be expended again when you place another direct order.

Really this whole leverage thing is being pushed too far. What was the govt. supposed to do? Let the negotiations continue for another year till your leverage pans out? Then another year? Like the previous UPA regime that set the benchmark for tardiness, corruption and self-goal scoring? Was the PM supposed to shut his eyes and ears like our ex-PM Manmohan Singh, to the repeated pleading by the IAF Air Chiefs that their combat edge was eroding and that some decision be taken?

The fact of the matter is that the MRCA negotiations had gone too far to be re-negotiated by this new govt. 36 months have passed to arrive at what was considered as a 95% complete negotiated deal- only for the last 5% to almost derail it all. the new DM had warned for some months now that this situation, which was par for the course under the UPA regime, wouldn’t be so under the NDA. the new PM has already blasted DRDO for tardiness in adhering to timelines. a DRDO Chief was even fired to bring in some accountability. the new DM is also a rational and pragmatic man, one who wasn’t going to sit quiet for fear of some corruption allegations ruining his white starched dhoti. They’ve already talked about how black-listing firms is one of the easiest ways to derail our own defence procurement and readiness goals. So these are men of action and men who also want to promote “Make in India”, but not at the cost of actual defence preparedness.

Something had to be done by the PM and DM to basically give the IAF new combat aircraft. the only other viable option was more Su-30MKIs and that meant another order for direct supplies from Irkut, not from HAL, which is already stretching to deliver 16 MKIs per year. And Irkut itself is already supplying Su-30SMs to Russia, so its not like their assembly lines are idle either, so it wouldn’t mean immediate deliveries either. Plus, Russia needs to focus on resolving the in-service spares and maintenance issues for the already massive 200+ Su-30MKI fleet. There was no need to reward them with another 40 Su-30MKI order.

So what would India gain by ordering more Su-30MKIs directly from Russia then? Nothing, other than saving on infrastructure and training costs that are associated with a new type’s intro into service. But remember that one of the primary aims of the MRCA was to end dependence on a single country for all your fast jet needs, and so more Su-30MKIs were not an ideal option, in fact that would be the last ditch option. And the Rafale had comprehensively won the evaluations carried out by the IAF, so they really weren’t talking about pushing a hog into service just because it was Western. This whole line of questioning by some fellows here, on why Rafales were ordered, is absurd and mostly related to all these fantastic scenarios of strategic gains and what not..

I’m an Indian, I pay my taxes and I’m happy that the IAF is finally getting some combat aircraft, and among the best in the world at that. I hope that this is followed by at least another 36 for around 72 Rafales at the very least. I’m inclined to believe that will happen in another 3-4 years. My country actually faces threats, unlike some others that face imaginary threats or love to participate in others’ wars. Even some such countries, including Australia have gone in for stop-gap, piecemeal orders just to keep up numbers. So, while it doesn’t make for marvelous strategic discussions on forum boards, procurements are terribly complicated and deals can just stretch on and on unless someone takes a decision. And that is where Modi thought out of the box and made a decision. And I applaud him for that, as will the IAF.

This constant intellectual masturbat*** on these forums gets tiring beyond a point. The IAF, the GoI should’ve done this, done that, got this, got that. The way I see it, having boxed ourselves into a hole, mostly thanks to the worst and most irresponsible PM/DM combo in decades, Modi has earned my gratitude by actually delivering much needed equipment instead of fodder for more intellectual debates on online forums.

I would’ve settled for FMS sales of F/A-18 E/Fs happily as well. Anything to arrest and hopefully end, what was now widely considered as a tragicomic farce of a competition.

And as far as costs go- seeing what Brazil is paying for Gripen NGs and to be able to design some rather piddling new features for the NG and the ability to design a twin seater ( which may be great for Brazil which has no such experience, but its no big deal for India) the Rafale F3 truly does seem like an affordable purchase when comparing actual bang vs buck.

So please do excuse me if I express my profound relief and happiness that Rafale will sport Indian colours and enter IAF service as I had hoped nearly 10 years ago when the revamped MRCA competition began.

And another great pic with the MiG-21 and MiG-27 as well

Soon to be seen together, in IAF colours..:D

You’ve ignored the crucial points, & what happened (or may happen) when. You’re arguing that T1 was selected for retirement instead of other options which were not available, or have, in fact, been done. T2, for example – already ordered, most built, long-lead items in the pipeline. Retiring Tornado early? Already planned, nothing to be saved there. Buying fewer T3? Done: T3B has been dropped. F-35B numbers? Still up in the air: too early to know.

None of the reasons for the decision to retire T1 early from the RAF are relevant to whether India buys it or not. They’re distractions from any discussion of whether or not India should buy them. I’ve not addressed that question at all, only the discussion of why the UK decided to retire T1 early.

FWIW, I think India would be better off sticking with what it’s planned, & going ahead with licence-building Rafale. But that is a completely different, & unconnected, topic from the UK’s reasons for retiring Typhoon T1 early.

and here is a sensible post. The UK govt. has its own reasons for not wanting to upgrade Typhoon T1 jets and those are reasons that don’t necessarily impact them possibly being looked at as a stopgap measure for the IAF’s combat aircraft shortfall. They can be upgraded if need be, although as all know, such an upgrade will not come cheap.

Having said that, Typhoon T1s don’t make sense for India any which way one looks at them- not cost wise, not capability wise, not in terms of adding to the already large fleet mix. When we know that negotiations continue to build Rafales in India, it made much more sense to simply look at the direct supply of brand new Rafale F3 and inducting them quickly, which is being done- IAF to induct 2 Rafale squadrons in 2 years.

I’m only surprised that finally an Indian politician has taken the pragmatic view, and gone out of his way to address the IAF’s requirement instead of just parroting the oft repeated “negotiations continue” while retirements of other combat aircraft approach and squadron numbers dwindle. The difference between the new dynamic PM and Defence Minister and the earlier PM and Def Min combo of Manmohan Singh and AK Antony is stark..as an Indian it’s almost hard to believe that someone took a decision specifically to expedite a project in the interest of the nation. We had kinda gotten used to abject delays and political indecision and senseless blacklisting.

In the meantime, the first Tejas Mk1 squadron will be up and ready by 2017 and 2 additional Su-30MKI squadrons too will enter service. A total of 5 squadrons to overcome the retirements of some 3 MiG-27ML and 3 MiG-21 squadrons. In combat terms, a jump although in numerical terms alone, a slight shortfall, which can be overcome eventually.

How about the AdlA units go to India directly? Ever thought of this possibility?

That is exactly what I was thinking is going to happen. All that would be required is to make the required changes to bring those Adl’A Rafales to the same spec as the one that the IAF evaluated (if there are any differences). French Govt. would be happy that they don’t have to pay for Rafales for a lot longer, the assembly line suddenly looks viable into the 2020s with Dassault getting more fully French built Rafales to appease its workforce and suppliers and the IAF gets 2 squadrons of Rafales into service quickly while indigenous production is negotiated in its own sweet time.

I agree with those who feel that this is a winning solution for all parties involved.

Calculated political push not regular process led to Rafale deal

another report in Firstpost stated that they will look to purchase more in the future, not sure how many but perhaps a couple of squadrons more may get added at a later date. So the possible purchase of a smaller number of Rafales directly may be to circumvent the incredibly tedious negotiations.

40 planes off the shelf- Rafale deal sealed- Modi Hollande talks tonight

Prime Minister Narendra Modi is determined to cut through red tape and finalise the Rafale fighter aircraft deal with France when he holds talks with French President Francois Hollande in Paris later on Friday night.

Top sources have just confirmed that PM Modi is set to change terms of a major Rafale deal to buy a number of fighter aircraft off-the-shelf. Two biggest likely takeaways in this context from the Indian point of view are: (i) France has now offered more attractive terms for outright purchase of the Rafale fighter jets; and (ii) the strategic requirements of the Indian Air Force are being given utmost importance and priority.

A concerted effort is being made by Team Modi to strike a balance between national security needs and domestic manufacturing with Make in India component of the Rafale deal to be followed up later.

It is not yet clear how many Rafale aircraft will be purchased outright by India after the Modi-Hollande talk. It is expected that India will be buying at least 40 planes off-the-shelf at a total price tag of $4 billion.

The Modi-Hollande talks are scheduled for 7.30 pm India time. First, the two leaders will meet one-on-one and this will be followed by delegation-level talks.

Cost negotiations are already underway and this will be followed by technical consultations. Issues like the price, life cycle costs, repairs, spare parts and technology transfer will be taken by technical experts from the two sides. The broad principle on which the two sides are working is that France is now willing to give more attractive terms to India.

While technology issues will be discussed at length separately in follow-up meetings, the two sides are actively considering the ‘Make in India’ component in the deal. Naturally the heads of governments can’t be expected to get into the nitty gritty of technical details.

Incidentally, PM Modi himself has gone on record as saying thus to a French newspaper ahead of his arrival in Paris: “The question of the Rafales is still in discussion and we should be able to make progress on mutually acceptable bases.”

One of the proposals being actively considered by the two sides is that Indian public sector company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will be making bulk of Rafale jets in India in close coordination with experts from the French company Dassault. However, Dassault won’t be held liable for penalties if, for whatever reasons, HAL is not able to deliver the jets on time.

..

Saab Grintek receives Rand 940 million worth orders for IDAS self protection systems for Dhruv ALH

Saab has received large follow-on orders for integrated self-protection systems for installation on the Indian Army and Air Force’s Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters in deals worth approximately $78 million.

The Dhruv’s manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) ordered additional Integrated Defensive Aids Suites (IDAS), which warn against radar, laser and infrared (IR) guided threats and automatically deploy appropriate countermeasures. IDAS has been designed for both helicopters and fixed wing aircraft. Saab also produces protection systems for both land and naval applications.

Production of the IDAS system will take place at Saab Grintek Defence’s facilities in Centurion, with deliveries set to take place between 2015 and 2018. In addition to the production orders received, Saab also received orders for IDAS ground support and test equipment for the Dhruv programme. Chris Skinner, head of marketing and sales at Saab Grintek Defence, said that Saab and HAL are in talks over the production of IDAS components in India.

Anne Lewis-Olsson, Vice President Communication Sub Sahara Africa for Saab Grintek Defence, said the Indian order is huge for Saab Grintek Defence and will have good long-term implications for the company. She said it will also retain skills and competence in South Africa.

“This is the type of order that companies dream about,” Skinner said, adding that this will mean that production facilities will have to be expanded to accommodate. He expects Saab Grintek Defence to receive additional follow-on IDAS orders from HAL.

…

HAL is also working on the indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), based on the Dhruv. The first LCH prototype made its maiden flight in March 2010 and the third in November 2014. Initial operational capability is expected by September this year. HAL will build 65 for the IAF and 114 or the Indian Army. Although Saab Grintek Defence is only producing IDAS suites for the Indian Army and Air Force Dhruvs at the moment, it will be bidding to supply the system on the Light Combat Helicopter.

…