savage-rabbitsavage-rabbit wrote:
Not only American designed, but American-built Mk.82s with modified lug spacing to fit on eastern standard pylons. It was also the case with BL775, Durandal and Maverick rails. Sorry, no pics – only with Orao and Super Galeb.
So they modified the weapon it self. I suppose changing the attatchment lugs is simpler but it’s more time consuming unless the Serbs make these weapons under license? I always thought it is more usual to modify the bomb racks them selves. The F-7M for example was modified to accept both US and Soviet/Chinese bombs without modification to the weapon. I take it all these munitions were extensively used by Fishbeds during the civil war.
What about the Sidewinders? The article in AFM showed a picture of a MiG-21bis research aircraft carrying Sidewinders. Does the Serb AF have a supply of these weapons and were they available during the civil war?
savage-rabbitI wonder if any of you can help me? I just got through reading an article in the July 2006 issue of AFM entitled ‘Serbian Fishbeds’. I was interested to read that Serbia will continue operating these aircraft, altough they will not be massively upgraded. What also interested me is that the Yugoslav and later Serb airforce have modified these aircraft. What modifications were made to these aircraft and what types of western armaments were carried by them?
I know of the following:
savage-rabbitthanx flex, Rabbit, Sainz & Lika for your replies, pics and info…
🙂 🙂 🙂
Rabbit, can you send me those pics you said above via e-mail…??
( [email]the_baphomet_00@hotmail.com[/email] )You said you made a model of this a/c… well I have a proyect: build it in 1/72 scale…. can you show us some pìcs of your model? I can use them as usefull references.
thanx guys
Alberto.-
I’ll see what I can do, but I lost the model while moving a while ago, so at them moment I am trying to figure out how to make a vac form canopy for conversion of a 1/72 Bilek MiG-21F-13 into an F-7M. As for three view drawings of the JJ-7 & FT-7 there are no reliable ones in circulation although the JJ-7 is generally similar to the early MiG-21U variants, that’s to say the ones with the same vertical fin as the MiG-21F-13. The JJ/FT-7 also borrows some features from the MiG-21UM/US but unlike them it didn’t borrow the broad fin of the MiG-21PFM and the JJ/FT-7 still has the narrow span horizontal fin and two ventral fins rather than just one like the Soviet trainers.
savage-rabbitErrr, something like this would help? (the last one is a drawing from In Action book only)
The Pakistani FT-7s that sported this desert camo used the exact same scheme as the Iraqi FT-7s. You might want to check out the webshots community site, that should yeld some results. Nota bene: most of those photos have been uploaded to this forum in various threads. AFAIK there is no three view of the Pakistani desert camo’ed FT-7s available. I pieced this camo together for a model I built using multiple photographs which I don’t know if I can post here without being kicked for CR violations. The pattern appears to be a standard one applied by Guizhou prior to delivery and it is mirrored over the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. That is the pattern on the right fuselage side and the upper right wing is an approximate mirror image of the pattern on the left side. The Iraqi F-7Ms and some of the F-7Bs also wore a desert camo that uses the same colors as that of the FT-7 but the pattern used is different and it is not mirrored like that of the FT-7. That pattern was also apparently applied at the factory.
savage-rabbitVery cool dude, I can’t believe the Afghans have the newer version.
Well, after all those years of shooting these things down having to fly them will take some getting used to for the Afghans. 😀 😀 😀
This thread has my vote for the title of ‘Coolest ever’.
savage-rabbitBangladesh AF – myaviation.net (4pics) and some chinese photo site – http://pic.top81.cn/
Chinese one – top81.cn
Zimbabwe and Iraqi are from older threads on this forumThanks for the info – I never realized those were lengthened variants
Thanks for the link.
Apart from them having a cannon you can reckognize the FT-7s with a longer fuselage by noting where the extreme tip of the little fairing in front of the wing on the FT-7 ends. On the earlyer FT-7 and JJ-7 variants it extends to a point underneath the middle of the front cockpit canopy. On the FT-7MP/PG/BG it only extends as far forward as the rear edge of the front cockpit canopy. The fuselage spine is also longer. This modification is quite subtle. I’m not sure how they compensated for the shift in the center of gravity.
savage-rabbitThe latest F-7G has only one 30 mm gun on the right side.
Most FT-7s that I’ve seen don’t have the GSh-23 copy, see below:
Most of the Chinese operated JJ-7 trainers and FT-7 export trainers for that matter do not have an internal gun at all. There has been some mention of the JJ-7 having provision for an external gun pod. This would probably be similar in concept to the 23mm GP-9 pod of the Soviet MiG-21PFM the 12-7mm machine gun pod of the MiG-21U variants. Personally I have never seen a PLAAF JJ-7 carrying such a pod so I take those reports with a grain of salt. On the export variants of the JJ-7 starting with the FT-7PM and later the FT-7PG, produced to the Pakistani Air Forces specifications, the fuselage of the FT-7 was lenghtened by some 60cm if I recall correctly. The additional space was used for extra fuel and a semi internal 23mm gun installation similar to that of the J-7C/D. The new Bangladeshi FT-7BG aircraft seem to incorporate the Pakistani modifications. If you compare them to the older FT-7 trainer the BAF has on strength you will notice they have a longer fuselage.
PS. Dude, where did you get those pictures?
savage-rabbitI was going through this thread. Well even if whatever mentioned regarding substandard etc. etc. is true, we should not be surprised. And that is also true that USA has all the right to put any sort of conditions. And honestly, I see no reason to get upset or angry about it. If Pakistanis dont like whatever they are offered, they should’nt buy it. Thats it, isnt it?
I agree, if the buyer is getting these F-16s as part of some defense aid program these kind of restrictions are to be expected since the customer is either getting very, very favorable loans or a hefty discount which basically means that the US fiscus, i.e. Joe taxpayer, is making up the diffenece between the price the customer gets and what General Dynamics charges since they are not in the business of selling F-16s at a loss. On the other hand if I was paying for a bunch of F-16s in full and out of my own pocket I would expect there to be no restrictions. I would not put up with the US Govt. dictating what I can rip out of the aircraft, what I can replace it with and where I buy it and any other upgrade packages that take my fancy (Of course this would have to be within reason, I could understand why the Americans would be terribly pissed of if, for example, I had my F-16As flown to Russia for installation of new electronics) :D. Nor would I like having to bring over a bunch of US. Govt. beancounters, especially if it was at my own expense, to stroll through my military bases to count missles, shells, jet-engine fan blades etc. Basically if that was requred of me as a customer who is prepared to pay in full for my F-16s out of my own pocket I would go elsewhere. Sweden perhaps? Or failing that France or Russia.
savage-rabbitThat’s just press, nothing official… :confused:
True, but if it is true one would expect the Serbs to rethink their airforce budget and raise their their MiG-29 force from the dead 😀
savage-rabbitMy bet would have to be the Aermacchi M346:
Basically a westernised version of the Yak-130. Follow the link to find out more…
I agree, since the Mako is on permanent hold the M346 would be my next choice and I would go for a mix of single seat and two seat variants since I really like what the South Africans did with their Impala using them aggressively for close support and as tactical fighters with great success. In fact I have always wondered why so few forces have gone for single seat variants of these trainers. The S-Africans developed the Impala and Oman, Malasya and Indonesia also operate single seat trainers (Hawk 200) there are probalby others but I can’t remember any at the moment. If I was operating on a tight budget the choice would probably be the Hongdu JL/K-8 or the Hongdu JL-15 (if it ever goes into production) which was left off the original list along with the Guizhou JL-9 and the MiG-AT.
savage-rabbitA while ago someone posted over the modern military aviation forum a photo of a female Chinese J-7 pilot. I would like to see this pic again, though I couldn’t find it. Does someone still have it?
Is it this one?
savage-rabbitI liked this photo so much I took the liberty of cleaning the glare out of it. I hope the author doesn’t mind 🙂
savage-rabbitGuys, let’s be honest here. There is no such thing as a catalogue price for a combat aircraft. Period. Offsets, support, negotiation skills, bribes, politics, production, economic needs, all are very important variables all being very important in the actual amount of money which needs to change hands.
True, political baggage is inversely proportional to price. The lower the price the bigger the political baggage and even if you pay the full price you will still not have full control over your aircraft. You will only have complete control if you design and manufacture the aircraft your self. The Americans in partickular will not hesitate to refuse to sell an export customer vital spares or weapons for his F-16/F-35 or F-22 (if it ever goes into export) unless the customer comes to heel on some political issue and this even if the customer paid the full price for the aircraft. This is one of the main reasons why Russian aircraft continue to be popular with countries that actually expect to have to go to war. Yes, the MiG-29 is less expensive than an F-16 but the fact that the Russians are less likely to stiff you on parts and weapons the minute you use your MiGs to do what they were built for is just as important as the price.
If I represented a small nation shopping around for a squadron or two of fighter-bombers that I expected would be used in a shooting war within the next few years I would limit my selection strictly to Russian, Chinese and possibly European manufacturers. I would actually be prepared to pay more for an less sophisticate aircraft if it came with little political baggage and the promise of continued (open or covert) supply of weapons and spares in the event of a war. A squadron of, say, Chinese F-10 fighters with full support from Chengdu will be alot more useful to me than a bunch of state-of-the-art F-16s grounded by lack of spares and castrated by US refusal to sell me the BVR missiles and A2G weapons I need.
savage-rabbitMiG-21MF, F-16, Mirage, Alpha Jet?
savage-rabbitThese F-7s have the same new RWR as installed on the Mirage-3EA and Mirage-5PA ROSE. What is the make?
The second photo looks like a twoseater and the cockpit photo is probably of that the same aircrarft, my guess would be that this is an FT-7MP. Does anybody know if these FT-7MP/PG trainers carry the Grifo radar? If they do this is pretty much what the F-7MP probably looks like from the drivers point of view. I had been expecting an MFD on the right side of the HUD in stead of that oldfashioned CRT display but the photos are nice none the same. Say bddddd have you got anymore, or can you at least post the cockpit photo in a slightly higher resolution? 😀
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