pluto77189well, for one thing,many of the people they wound fire back.
As far as killing for pure joy, that’s a misunderstanding of the facts. When in a combat, life or death situation, you get into a mindset of life or death, and you kill or be killed. Unfourtunatly, that translates into a “yeah, I killed that guy, blew him in two!” attitude sometimes. Ever see the friendly fire video of the apache killing a bradley and US APC? The guy was all hyped up till they told him what he did.
My friend called us from Bagdhad, all excited, almost bragging about fighting, he seemed very distanced from the reality of what he was doing, as far as the human aspect, you know, not really THINKING that “hey, I actually KILLED this guy.”
When he returned, he was WAY mellow, not even talking about killing people, not even guys that fired RPG’s at point blank range, not even bragging about the people that held iraqi children up a shields. He had people coming up to them telling them that thei little daughters were taken away, raped and killed by Uday–systematically. He couldn’t even find it in himself to feel any sort of “excitement” over killing these obviously evil people.
I’m sure when the Ac-130 saw people shooting up in the air, and killed the whole group, they were acting the same. Cold, terrifyingly cold, due to the distance of their attacks. War is hell.
WWII bomber crew leveled cities, killing hundreds of thousands. I bet they were even more cold–they coldn’t SEE the peole they killed.
And referring to iraqi people not coming into contact with US soilders. You are very wrong there. The soilders got out all the time, they walked the streets in patrols, bought at local stores, talked to the locals–it’s all encouraged, so the iraqis are more comfortable with them. They interact quite a bit with the Iraqis, I was very surprised how much so.
The People that MUST be killed.
Well, as far as I’m concerned, any person that will stop at NOTHING to kill me, or endanger the lives of my children for NO OTHER REASON THAN BECAUSE SOMEONE TELLS THEM THAT GOD WANTS IT THAT WAY, must be either killed, executed, or fatally wounded, to insure that MY family, MY way of life, is not threatened.
With people that believe so fanatically that God wants the death of innocents, there is no other response. If we ease up, give in, or slack off, we’re going to get more of 9/11.
Like I said, War is hell. If people are going to bring war to America, then we’re going to bring hell to them.
pluto77189Originally posted by flex297
What is the final official reason for the crash? AAM? AAA? R-60 or aircraft cannon? I have already heard too much stories..
it WAS shot down by an old school SAM. However, it wasn’t the vulnerability of it’s design that caused the thing to be hit.
The F-117 was based very close to the strike zone. The AF apparantly got over confident, and flew the thing to the same strike zone, 3 days in a row, formthe same airstrip, with the smae flight path, at the same(relativly low) altitude–during the day, I believe. Well, once you fly several thousand sorties with no incidents, you probably get cocky. Maybe even start to underestimate your enemies to the point of self-destruction. Why they never thought the Serbs(was it?) would NOT notice this pattern, and respond accordingly.
Well, the enemy did(can you blame them?). they set up a series of sam launchers and Radar along the flight path, and shot it down.
I don’t care how stealthy an aircraft is, if it’s flying low, and RIGHT ON TOP of the radar, it’s going to be tracked.
Part of the technology is to make the range at which it can be tracked smaller. In this case, it flew right over radar sights.
pluto77189Originally posted by PLA
We have seen several movies and pictures were US soldiers eradicate people that are not clearly identified. We have seen several movies and pictures where US soldiers kill in anger and purely for destruction and sometimes joy. What makes them better then Milosovich? Do understand that not all soldiers are wrong but there are some that do it with joy. Just remember the CNN seport about Iraki soldier being finished off during clear daylight and running camera’s. I do not hear any complaints cause it is not a white person and just an arab.
You DO understand that most of the actual audio is edited out for security reasons. And You DO understand that in nearly EVERY case where people are blown up from afar, there are special ops guys on the ground, tracking the targets? You do understand that the Us military is not going to waste hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, ordinance, and training to kill people without an idea as to who they are and what they’re doing?
I remember a site, call nausea, or something, that was blatant anti US. they had a video of US soilders at a checkpoint in Iraq, Gunning down a car full of civilians. there’s NO repeat ZERO audio for the first several seconds, then gunfire.
What they cut out (this video was on Fox news many times–with ALL the audio) was the soilders screaming STOP STOP STOP , repeatedly, at the top of their lungs, over and over. THEN , only until they obviously were NOT going to stop, the soilders opened fire.
They have orders to kill anyone who drives up on them without stopping. Most of the time, the people that do not stop, are driving a car full of explosives.
pluto77189Freind of mine that just got back from BAghdad had some stories. I was really surprised, because HE said that almost ALL the Iraqis were very happy they were there, and that the few that weren’t, well, were surprised that the us soilders ALLOWED them to voice their opinions, ask questions, and actually get responses.
Almost all the people they killed, especially since the “major combat” ended, were Syrian, Saudi, Jordanian, Yemeni or actual linguring members of the fedyeen…god I can’t spell.
you say they are defenders??? THEY are invaders from other countries, and they are ATTACKING IRAQI CITIZENS more than they attack US soilders! They are getting nowhere attacking the troops, so they hope to terrorize the iraqis. Some defenders. They are sick people, SICK. Just as the Nazis thought they were doing “good” by killing and genocide(not just jews), these people believe they are doing God’s will by killing innocent people.
War is hell, more so than I could ever imagine. The people that come up to a 70 ton tank, fire an RPG at point blank range, know they’re going to die, they’re nuts. These are not the kind of people you can wound, stick in a nice cozy hospital, and then release whent he war’s over, and they feel “better”–simply put: these people must die, because their sole goal in life is to kill anyone who stands in the way of militant, islamicist, world domination.
I seriously expected that while most Iraqis would be “glad” Saddam was gone,they would show defiance to US troops, as they are an occupying force. No matter how good a change, I would like my Independance. I was espesially surprised that the US troops saw the iraqi people as happy.
pluto77189Originally posted by SOC
I’ve got that one. Watch out though, there’s two versions. One has been hacked up by the media to illustrate the horrendous random killings of poor Iraqis by the news media :rolleyes: The second, unedited version which I have shows that the guys are clearly hostiles as they are fooling around with either RPG tubes or MANPADS launchers in the field to the left in the video, and start pointing one at the AH-64.
really? I have noticed it was edited, but I thought it was done by the army, for whatever reasons…where is it available online?
Friend of mine just got back from there.
Seems that the terrorists do not come out at night very often, because things like that were a common occurance.
Seems there’s QUITE a bit of this type of footage around, but you have to know people…….
He says he’s got one of an apache chasing after soem guys in a car, ater they just shot at some troops, the apache follows them for quite a while, you see it launch two rockets, they hit, and the truck is in the air.
I want to get a hold of that.
He’s seen some “ac-130’d” sites, and they were not pretty. Mostly pieces and rubble.
pluto77189this is the WORST piece of info….
2- The F22 is officially headed to the reserves and ANG as soon as the F35
comes on line. Kind of turns on the lights as to the operating parameters
of the 22 vs the 35.
HAH. This is BS. The F-22 has BEEN PROMISED to Air National Guard units and reserves. Not after the F-35 hits, but in the early stages of production.
This was something recently released, as a matter of fact. The AF and LM are making a pretty savy political move. They are promising some of the first F-22 raptors produced(after the initial wing at langley) will be for ANG and reserves, for defense of the United States airspace. Now, it may be a bit overkill, but their reasoning is pretty sound. Not only does this give the nation better security with much faster responses, it gains an important political ally. The ANG and reserves will become another lobbying source FOR the procurement of future Raptors. The more that are neeeded, the lower the flyaway cost(as construction improves and speeds up). The more produced, the less development cost on a per-plane basis.
Having flown both, they are not even close to being the same aircraft. The
35 is already light years ahead of the 22.
This makes me wonder as to the authenticity of the report. The F-22 is VASTLY more powerful than the >X<-35, double the thrust, with vectoring nozzles.
Any advances in software, or radar, or sensors will eventually be included in later model F-22’s, I mean, that’s part of the deal, the way things work.
The F-22 is bigger, it has much more room for sensors, and a more powerful radar. In clean config, the 22 can carry 8 missles, the F-35, well, maybe 4??
Most important of all, the F-35 has not yet been built, and in fact, is having bigger troubles than the F-22 at the moment. At least software is “easy” to fix, the F-35 is having “weight” issues.
I’m sure the F-35 wil be awesome, and a very capable machine. It’s prime role will be to replace the F-16, a multirole aircraft, good at doing air to ground, and good at air to air.
The F-22 will be pretty good at Air to ground(with SDB’s, really, what ISN’T?) and superior at air to air.
And that’s theultimate reason fo rthe Raptor. Every single aspect of warfare-especially that of air to ground attack craft-relies on air superiority. Every single decision, tactic, and war will rest on the concept of gaining air superiority.
This means that it all rests on the F-22. It is in fact the most important project in the Air force, for without it, the REST of the Air force is simply not safe.
pluto77189I don’t get it
These people, trying to cut the F-22, don’t seem to have any understanding of the way things work in the long run. The f-15 is old, and has been undefeated, and has attained total air superiority in EVERY engagement it was required to do so in. The US army likes to fight when the Air force as obtained air superiority.
IF the Air force simply created hundreds of dual use, F-35’s, and went up against a force of significant threat, feilding air superiority fighters, we stand to lose some of our edge.
I simply cannot see the air force ALLOWING themselves to enter combat with anything but the most capeable aircraft. to do anything else puts them at a disadvantage, and that, puts our troops at a disadvantage–unacceptable.
I find it ludacris thatthese officials are suggesting they kill a project that has some much sunk into it when the project is IN PRODUCTION, with very much to show for!!!
While I hated to see the comanche and the crusader go, both programs had lingured on for decades, and neither had much to show for it!
Whiel the raptor is overbudget, is IS being produced, and it IS more capable than the eagle, or other percieved threats. Most importantly, it is HERE, NOW, ready for action in a YEAR!!!!
the JSF is AT least(and if you take into consideration the way these programs go–delays!!!–probably longer)10 years away.
UCAV’s with air to air capability WILL supplement the Raptor, but they will be less effective on their own in the near future.
The F-15 was designed as was the F-22–air superiority for now, and the future. how long did it take for the F-15 to be outclassed? 30 years. We’re probably going to have to wait at least 10 years before the Raptor is “NEEDED NOW.” If we wait till then, it’s too frikn late.
We simply Do NOT KNOW, as of yet, what and WHO, and WHERE and WHEN, we will face and enemy that necessitates the F-22’s capabilities.
Is it NOW, or in the next 5 years? Probably not, thank God, and thanks to the people that designed the F-15 with the same reasoning that they are now designing the F-22, with FORESIGHT, not HINDSIGHT!
The Air Force, and the US, for that matter, NEEDS the F-22 right now. Not because it needs to USE it now, but because it may need to use in in the future.
We cannot be satiatied by “good enough” weapons. The F-15 is good enough now,but it won’t be in the future. Just like we don’t design weapons to be JUSSSSST powerful enough to kill a tank, we make sure that it hits so hard it removes it from existance.
We can’t have an air superiority fighter jussssst good enough to take donw a mig-29. We need to make sure it’ll blow the NEXT one out of the sky.
pluto77189Another Dinosaur?
There aren’t any current aircraft named after dinosaurs.
Naming them after something extinct isn’t a good idea.
I’m assuming you’re talkng about the raptor, which is not a dinosaur, but a generic term for a predatory bird. Raptor, meaning “theif” in latin or greek. Velociraptor=quick theif, oviraptor=egg theif.
F-22 raptor = generic term for bird of prey.
Unfourtunatly, because of the commerical sucess of Jurassic Park, now everyone thinks Raptor means a big, sickle clawed dinosaur. When Velociraptors were only as big as a jackyl…
Ok…
I think they should give the F-35 an original name.
(By the way X-35 was an experimental designation, not meant to actually turn into “F-35”, but it seems to have stuck, and the production fighter will probably be named F-35, and not F-24, next in line from F-22 and YF-23)
The NAme should be a name that sounds good to US and British pilots. Ultimatly, it will NOT be used by american pilots, so they shouldn’t waste TOO much effort in coming up with something.
I can’t think of any aircraft actually referred to by it’s proper name. B-52 BUFF not stratofortress, F-16 Viper, F-14 turkey, F-15E Mudhen, A-10 warthog, B-1 Bone(probably the most clever one, I think)
The US tends to put a positive spin on their implements of death–really, who do they think they’re fooling with these cute and fuzzy, uplifting names? Spirit, fighting falcon…
The only aircraft I know of that are referred to by their actual names tend to be PROPERLY named: Apache(pueblo for enemy)gunships, Cobra gunships, and Spectre gunships…see a trend?
I guess they KNOW they can’t make them sound any less deadly with any name, so they don’t bother.
A friend of mine just got back from Iraq, and he repeatedly referred to the “Spectregunships” all in one word. I guess if the thing is just bristling wiht guns and cannons and missels, you HAVE to give it a scary name. All you have to do is look at the footage of the AC-130 in afghanistan, or the AH-64 in Iraq, and you’ll see what I mean.
As for the F-35, I’ve voting stiletto, as suggested by a guy on F-16.net. Next, shuriken.
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