Considering that they chose the less risky approach and it still resulted in such big cost overruns, the F-23 could have been much worse, and might have gotten the program cancelled. By all accounts, the F-119 is an excellent engine, and is a success story (something not heard often). In additin, the F-23’s edge over the F-22 isn’t as much as many believe, as one poster stated above. Aesthetics wise, the F-23 may look better, but I believe the F-22 was a better all-rounder. BTW, the F-22 supercruised at M1.7 when Gen John Jumper did his qualification flight on the Raptor. Though I believe that was because the Raptor was lightly loaded… It should still do around M1.5 at tactical config…. Just an estimate though!

LOL, not too kind, aren’t you? But it does look pretty cool, sure looks better than a Raptor.

Let me correct one thing.

RBE2 of Rafale in Korean tender was AESA as well as technique transfer.

At that time Rafale was even cheaper than F-15K with APG63v1.

Regards,

Was it? I was under the impression that the passive RBE-2 was offered instead. Thanks for the info…

The grippen isn’t competing versus american planes ?
And what does that mean “it isn’t French ?”

If you know how to read, I said “wasn’t competing head to head with a US fighter whose production line was shutting down“. DOnt they teach how to read in France? Or is it just you? BTW, the french thing, think about it yourself, lol.

Not only that but the Rafale mk2 hadn’t wings or engines or even weapons, this kind of things is too dangerous, yoyu might hurt somebody with that.

I meant that the Rafale’s price in the Korean competition was with the RBE-2 passive, NOT with the AESA array. Again, your comprehension capability (or rather, the lack of) is worrisome.

Bloody expensive ? No. Expensive, ok, but not that much.
but I forget something important, the rise of the Euro 🙁

Yes, its bloody expensive, considering we are facing a budget crunch, on top of the Euro exchange rate thing.

I fear your lack of knowledge about Dassault is obvious.
That was THE main point of Dassault “Ask me what you want, I’ll do it”.

Frankly, I don’t know what you mean, both in your earlier statements and the above one. More specifically, I dont see your arguments in your statements. All you did was to make Dassault sound whorish.

I fear that you don’t understand.
The RSAF has enough planes to use the same tactics ? singapore has enough SEAD to establish the air superiority versus any country ? Ouch, great news, glad for you.

Since I live in fear at your diminished reasoning capability twisting what I say and making the argument go off tangent, let me just get this straight. YOU put up the idea that french weapons would be more suitable for Singapore because the French AF “which is closer to RSAF than the USAF “. You have provided no evidence whatsoever to back up your case. Going by your reasoning, I in turn, put up the statement that since we train with them in Red Flag, our doctrine should be, sensibly, more akin to theirs than yours. Of course, not being an RSAF pilot, I’m just making a guess, which I HAVE used the words “hazard a guess” to qualify myself. You then came round and insinuated that I was saying that the RSAF had the same capabilities as the USAF. Nope. I never said that. Never too did I say that we copy their tactics wholesale. And I do think that it is possible that some of their tactics and doctrine may be applicable to us. Let me just pose a few questions at you to clear things up:

1. In what way is the French AF more similar to us than the USAF? I am not talking capabilities. I’m talking tactics and doctrine. Keep in mind that we do not train with the French AF, so I see little cross pollination of ideas.

2. How is french weapons better suited for us? In what way is French weapons better for us than American weapons? Just saying that the French AF is closer to RSAF is in no way conclusive that your weapons suit us better.

I don’t remind the exact date, but the second prototype was in early 2004, a singaporian delegation was allowed to enjoy the test IIRC.

And how does that show in any way that the AESA was developed for a long time by the French? All this shows is that you french have a product which is not ready yet. BTW, I’m still waiting for where you got that the AESA offered by the French is cheaper than the American offering.

Finally, for the sake of a better debate, let me just ask you this question. Is it hard for you to understand English, because you dont seem to get the arguments i put forth. If you find it hard to understand, I could try to accomodate you by putting it in simpler english, really. All you have to do is ask, nicely.

Offsets do not count for much in this competition. Singapore doesn’t look for offsets, I think due to a lack of a large aviation industry. We are looking more for tech transfers which would allow us to upgrade the aircraft on our own in future. In this sense, Dassault would trump the rest, as they have indicated their willingness for tech transfers. Boeing on the other hand would have a hard time trying to get permission for any significant amount of tech transfers and granting access to source codes. While we have seen a slight relaxation of their rules in the case of the UAE Blk60s, I dont think the rules will ever be so relaxed where they could come near Dassault in this regard.

The Korean competition was anything but an honest one. It’s sound different in singapore.
AND the rafale was ahead in the competition.

I have no hard info on Singapore’s requirements, but I’m pretty sure our requirements are not the same as Korea’s. With the amount of secrecy surrounding the our requirements and the evaluation, neither you nor I know who is ahead of who in satisfying our requirements better. So a claim cannot be made that the Rafale is the better aircraft for Sing.

And could you explain me why the grippen use american missiles ? 🙂

The Gripen wasn’t competing head to head with a US fighter whose production line was shutting down. And the Gripen isn’t French.

Yes, without the most important system of the plane, so for the same amount, a much less efficient airplane.

THe Eagle’s price did not include the AESA, but then, neither did the Rafale in the Korean competition.

I know. According to a EADS magazine, the integration campaign of the Taurus on the Typhoon costed 60 millions euros.
BTW: that argument has been seen over and over in case of a country with american aircraft buy french aircraft, never for the opopsite 🙂

Good. So we now accept the fact that its BLOODY expensive to integrate American weapons on the Rafale, EVEN if permission is given. That would mean that if the choice is the Rafale, we would have to get a whole new set of armaments JUST for the Rafale, which would also not be compatible with the JSF in future. Big minus point for the Rafale.

I dont quite get your last statement, but if you are saying that the French never denied permission to integrate its weapons on American aircraft, the reason is simple. The French just dont have the clout to do so, denying their customers something like that would only jeopardise their own chances. Not so for the American case. Also, in most cases, there is no reason to do so, since Americans aren’t in the competition in the first place.

With the French AF in mind, which is closer to RSAF than the USAF I think.

In what way? Considering that we train with them in Red Flag, I would actually hazard a guess that we are closer to them than to the French AF. Cazaux isn’t much of training as compared to the Red Flag. Basically, all this talk on who is closer to who is a moot point. I dont think that it has any effect on the armament choice.

I never say it was 100% sure. but you, think a little too. You spend billions on aircraft and cannot use them as it please you.
India use russian missiles on mirages and french missiles on Mig. French or american weapons are much more easily to integrated I think.

That’s the price for buying their weapons. They have the clout, they will use it. I’m under no illusion that anyone else will behave any better in their shoes.

And Thales tested AESA on the rafale for quite a long time.
Not operationnal array, ok, but AESA.

How long is long? I dont think it really is that long. If the AESA was really finished, then it would have been offered as a ready product. It isn’t.

One thing strike me by reading that. According to what I read, Singapore is very keen on gaining complex technologies and the french proposition of sharing the program has been welcome in your country.

Absolutely true. In fact, the biggest plus point of the Rafale is Dassault’s willingness to share tech. And collaboration on the AESA RBE-2 was offered. So in a sense, that may actually be a plus point. lol. But of course the trade-off is that it is more risky than the APG-63V2. So its a matter of which DSTA values more.

The goal was 10 times cheaper MMIC than american equivalent AT THAT TIME, so since the technology is still moving, it would be still several times cheaper.

And how close are they to that goal? So sure the Americans have made no strides in AESA tech? From all that I’ve read, the Americans have made great strides in making AESA tech cheaper. No such news from the French. Of course, if you could provide info….

so only because composits materials? pls!

eletronic suite of the block 60 and rafale ares advanced, eurofighter not!

“Just because the F-15’s design is 30 years old doesn’t mean it’s junk.”

in 2020, mouwhaha, really? there ares still Mirages III operational today, and yes it’s junk, so the F15 in 2020, pls, a bit of reflection is needed here!

The airframe design is old, and the Rafale and Eurofighter definitely benefits from a decade of advances in airframe design. HOWEVER the electronics and avionics in the Eagle are not. They are updated constantly, as the recent change in mission computer, addition of JHMCS, APG-63V1 and 2, Aim-9X attests to. And all these are only those in the open domain. Further upgrades in the RWR and the radar in the form of the APG-63V3 are already under consideration. Avionics obsolesence is not something the Americans would let their frontline strike fighter fall into.