Creaking DoorSorry, no idea…..but no doubt the other P-38 could be recovered.
The original target was a B-17, and although they examined one of them under the ice the weight of the ice had crushed it!
For a clip of the ‘cannon test’ follow this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8h43TRXwk
Now that’s archaeology! 😀
Creaking DoorEven after decades under the ice her cannon…..and its ammunition worked…..and they certainly proved that! 😉
Creaking DoorThanks for putting me on to that account…
Captain Detmers of the Kormoran was obviously a very skilled and experienced commander, sounds like a pretty humane bloke too, in the Langsdorff mould I would suggest.
No problem, it was a link I followed from the Wikipedia article; hadn’t read it myself until after my first post.
It would be easy to perpetuate the propaganda image of the Germans but as you say there are many examples of ‘civilised’ warfare. Don’t get me wrong, the Nazi ideology was rotten to the core, and there were some real monsters but it’s important, especially nowadays with our sound-bite view of the world not to ‘tar them all with the same brush’.
And the above is in no way intended to undermine the efforts of the crew of HMAS Sydney; even after a devastating first salvo at around 17:30 she still represented enough of a threat for the crew of Kormoran to still be firing nearly an hour later.
The auxiliary commerce-raiders of the early war are a fascinating subject; could do with a decent film making about it, the HMAS Sydney / Kormoran story has everything you could wish for (and Australia still has something of a film industry).
I’d also love to hear some input from our Australian forum members; particularly as to what the public mood was at the time (was the news of the loss even released?), and how much publicity did the crew of the Kormoran get when they reached Australia?
HMAS Sydney was a ‘modified Leander Class’ cruiser but I can’t find my British Cruisers book either!
Creaking DoorThanks for putting me on to that account…
Captain Detmers of the Kormoran was obviously a very skilled and experienced commander, sounds like a pretty humane bloke too, in the Langsdorff mould I would suggest.
No problem, it was a link I followed from the Wikipedia article; hadn’t read it myself until after my first post.
It would be easy to perpetuate the propaganda image of the Germans but as you say there are many examples of ‘civilised’ warfare. Don’t get me wrong, the Nazi ideology was rotten to the core, and there were some real monsters but it’s important, especially nowadays with our sound-bite view of the world not to ‘tar them all with the same brush’.
And the above is in no way intended to undermine the efforts of the crew of HMAS Sydney; even after a devastating first salvo at around 17:30 she still represented enough of a threat for the crew of Kormoran to still be firing nearly an hour later.
The auxiliary commerce-raiders of the early war are a fascinating subject; could do with a decent film making about it, the HMAS Sydney / Kormoran story has everything you could wish for (and Australia still has something of a film industry).
I’d also love to hear some input from our Australian forum members; particularly as to what the public mood was at the time (was the news of the loss even released?), and how much publicity did the crew of the Kormoran get when they reached Australia?
HMAS Sydney was a ‘modified Leander Class’ cruiser but I can’t find my British Cruisers book either!
Creaking DoorIn answer to the original question…..’Glacier Girl’, without question! 🙂
Creaking DoorThis one could have been…
P9374?
Creaking Door‘Kee Bird’ question. Post fire, why was the wreckage, including the (running) engines, left on the frozen lake?
When the thaw came (not the fire) the whole lot fell through the ice; to be lost forever? 😡
And how much are the replacement engines for the CAF B-29 ‘FIFI’ costing each – $250,000?
Seems funny that the engines (that one man died for) at least, were not recovered so as to limit the loss and to preserve something!
Sorry for the hi-jack! 🙂
Creaking DoorSo the hole was for what? :confused:
Creaking Doorthats odd why didnt they carry parachutes…
Not really sure. The weight of the early parachutes for a crew of 40-50 was probably one reason…..plus, I’m sure they were worried about what sort of reception they would receive if they did parachute into Britain from a zeppelin.
Bombing of civilian targets was seen as piracy…..they would probably have been lynched!
Creaking DoorJapanese Submarine / Machine-Gunned Rafts
Aren’t we getting a bit carried away here?
Remember this was the 19th November 1941; that is a few days before 7th December 1941, does that ring any bells?
Kormoran disengaged HMAS Sydney at about 18:30 ‘in fading daylight’ but the glow of fires aboard HMAS Sydney could be seen until about 21:00 when a single large ‘flame’ was seen and then nothing; caused by a magazine explosion aboard HMAS Sydney?
I know there were instances of Japanese, German (and British) submarine crews machine-gunning survivors in the water but in most of these cases we know of them because some of the survivors survived the machine-gunning! Are we really suggesting that after 21:00 hours when HMAS Sydney blows up and all the surviving crew must be in the water or on rafts a Japanese submarine surfaces and manages to machine-gun every single survivor from a crew of 645, in the dark?
Yes, HMAS Sydney was hit by a torpedo but it must surely have been fired by Kormoran or it could conceivably (but unlikely) have been one of her own torpedoes, damaged and circling, fired in a last desperate act.
Were the Japanese not concerned that their surprise attack on Pearl Harbour might be compromised by such an action? And for what, the sinking of one 7000 ton light cruiser, when their target at Pearl Harbour was a whole fleet?
This is really conspiracy-theory and propaganda territory is it not?
Creaking DoorJapanese Submarine / Machine-Gunned Rafts
Aren’t we getting a bit carried away here?
Remember this was the 19th November 1941; that is a few days before 7th December 1941, does that ring any bells?
Kormoran disengaged HMAS Sydney at about 18:30 ‘in fading daylight’ but the glow of fires aboard HMAS Sydney could be seen until about 21:00 when a single large ‘flame’ was seen and then nothing; caused by a magazine explosion aboard HMAS Sydney?
I know there were instances of Japanese, German (and British) submarine crews machine-gunning survivors in the water but in most of these cases we know of them because some of the survivors survived the machine-gunning! Are we really suggesting that after 21:00 hours when HMAS Sydney blows up and all the surviving crew must be in the water or on rafts a Japanese submarine surfaces and manages to machine-gun every single survivor from a crew of 645, in the dark?
Yes, HMAS Sydney was hit by a torpedo but it must surely have been fired by Kormoran or it could conceivably (but unlikely) have been one of her own torpedoes, damaged and circling, fired in a last desperate act.
Were the Japanese not concerned that their surprise attack on Pearl Harbour might be compromised by such an action? And for what, the sinking of one 7000 ton light cruiser, when their target at Pearl Harbour was a whole fleet?
This is really conspiracy-theory and propaganda territory is it not?
Creaking DoorCan you get as much info from him as possible…
I spent a fascinating afternoon discussing my friend’s time aboard HMS Illustrious but unfortunately he appears to have served aboard at a different time to your uncle.
If I have remembered correctly my friend sailed on HMS Furious from Gibraltar, carrying the twelve Swordfish of 810 Squadron, to Bermuda, where the Swordfish were flown off. HMS Furious then proceeded (via Jamaica?) to the (neutral) United States for repairs. Many of the crew (including my friend) then transferred by train (via leave in New York) to Norfolk (Portsmouth?), Virginia to join HMS Illustrious which was completing repairs. HMS Illustrious sailed to Bermuda to re-embark the 810 Squadron Swordfish (the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour occurred during this leg of the voyage) and then returned to Norfolk, Virginia (where the attitude of the local population had completely changed now that the United States and Great Britain were allies against a common foe).
HMS Illustrious collected a large batch of Grumman Martlet fighters and in company with HMS Furious (leading) set course for Britain. During the latter part of the voyage HMS Illustrious managed to run into the stern of HMS Furious (at about 03:30) and both ships were damaged (particularly the Admiral’s cabin on HMS Furious which was demolished). HMS Illustrious (or both ships) put into Liverpool for repairs.
It’s late so I must leave it there for tonight.
Creaking DoorC’mon, let’s see some photos!
How about a new rule (Peter?)…..no photo…no bragging! 😀
Edit – Apologies. 😮 My post now looks extremely insensitive given the nature of the (simultaneous) post above. It was actually a light-hearted request for a few photographs of the tantalising collections listed in previous posts.
Creaking DoorThe hole in the early 109 spinners was for a cannon, not cooling.
Really, I thought that was a myth…..I know some carried an engine-mounted cannon…
…but did every ‘spinner-with-a-hole’ mean that a cannon was carried?
Creaking DoorAs a commerce raider Kormoran guns were camouflaged and apparently were ‘unmasked’ and brought into action in six seconds during the engagement with HMAS Sydney. Although the guns of HMAS Sydney were trained on Kormoran the German witnesses saw ‘cooks’ lining the rails of HMAS Sydney and noted that the secondary armament wasn’t manned.
HMAS Sydney had closed to 1000 yards before Kormoran open fire; at that range a rudimentary sight on a 150mm mounting would probably be better than the more complicated fire-control of HMAS Sydney.
The first 150mm salvo from Kormoran was seen to “score hits on the cruiser’s bridge and forward gunnery fire-control position”.
“As the second 150mm salvo was fired by Kormoran, HMAS Sydney opened up with a full eight-gun broadside, which passed harmlessly high over the stern of Kormoran.”
“Kormoran then fired eight salvos in succession, at six second intervals, without any fire coming back.”
Altogether Kormoran fired 450 rounds of 150mm, hitting HMAS Sydney at least 50 times, Kormoran also fired a huge amount of 20mm automatic anti-aircraft fire that would have been deadly and hugely demoralising at such short range.
HMAS Sydney was also hit by a least one torpedo, abreast the forward turrets.
The quotations above come from this detailed account:
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/kormoran.html
You make a good point about the 11 inch guns of the Graf Spee striking the Ajax and Achilles. I can’t really explain that one, possibly the ammunition was a factor; armoured-piercing as opposed to high-explosive?
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