The mere fact that US declare some area as strategically significant for their interests, does not mean the rest of the world shall back down.. Certainly not big players like China which follow their own interests..
As Blitzo has already pointed out, at this point I don’t think there is any asset in the US arsenal which would make China stop the activities. The ability to dictate the conditions at their own backyard is crucial for further development of China as a strategic player.. It’s not like they are dredging their shoals 100 miles off the coast of Florida.
I think the US could definitely place enough military assets in the area to make China “think twice” about reclaiming Scarborough and possibly add to that with the potential threat of larger scale economic and political retaliation (though that would be met with retaliation from the Chinese side of course). But there definitely is no way for the US to physically force China from dredging or to physically evict them from the already reclaimed islands.
If the US really pushes a combined military/economic/political pressure, then China may shrug away any plans they had to reclaim Scarborough — because their other reclamation projects have already been so extensive and are near completion to begin with, that the lack of Scarborough may not even be an issue. Especially in the next few years when the new wave of destroyers and frigates start to kick in, along with CCG cutters, the combined Chinese military and civil presence on the surface, and surveillance capabilities that can be deployed from the current reclaimed islands will more than supplement the presence they could deploy to Scarborough compared to now.
You only have a few options at this point.
1. Do nothing.
2. Start the dredging of your own shoals with heavy fortifications.
3.Move Heavy tactical assets to the Philippines. Land launced TLAMs land based Aegis. F-35Bs. Hold all there new islands at threat.
4. Move a mobile sea base platform into the region.
5. Use Taiwan or the Philippines as a bargain chip. IE. Taiwan will get F-35s if you start dredging.
6. Do nothing.
None of those options will be able to physically stop China from dredging up Scarborough Shoal if they really wanted to — because to physically stop China from doing so would require the use of physical force and effectively would amount to a declaration of war.
The US can deploy their entire pacific fleet into the SCS loaded with tomahawks, F-35s and super hornets all directed at the islands, but unless they’re willing to actually fire them, there’s not too much they can do to stop the dredging of new islands or to force China to vacate from its currently reclaimed islands.
The reclaimed islands themselves are fundamentally vulnerable even if they were fully stocked with SAMs and tactical fighters, and in a high intensity war against a capable enemy they would be sitting ducks.
But it is their peacetime presence and ability to deploy surveillance aircraft and to use them as listening posts which is most important, and their ability to cooperate with Chinese Navy surface and air forces in the SCS during peacetime to enhance situational awareness of the SCS is also very important.
On military relations and leverage, Russia => China.
All the stuff China import from Russia, they need it.Stuff like S-400, Su-35, T26 helios. Other helios.
MS-21. Looots of jet engines.
The list is long..Well China could allways order from US of A.. wait!
You make sound like China can pressure Russia not to sell PakFa to India.. Riight
The pressure that China is interested to bring to bear on Russia for selling PAK FA to India is minimal, if any. Selling weapons to Taiwan is an entirely different barrel of fish.
If Russia did so, that would basically threaten all economic, military, and diplomatic cooperation between China and Russia. There is a reason why the US has been the only nation in the last decade or more that has been willing to sell Taiwan any sort of substantial weapons.
More importantly, the question you have to ask is why on earth Russia would be interested in selling to Taiwan in the first place, considering the relationship between China and Russia have been warming quite a bit in recent years. The profits which Russia could gain from selling to Taiwan would mean very little compared to having a geostrategic partnership with China.
You mentioned self interest before — I completely agree, Russia just like any nation would sell depending on their own self interest. But in the case of Taiwan, a military sale would likely cause substantial harm to ties between Russia and China, and thus not be in Russia’s self interest.
BS.
Russia sell too all countries in Asia.
PAK, India, china etc
Hmm, how much do you think Russia values its relationship with China?
Vikramaditya could not operate them on account of her wooden deck
Wait, Vikram has a wooden flight deck? :confused:
I’ve heard nothing about that, and I find it difficult to believe… do you have a source for it?
With sea levels rising daily I wonder how long these Chinese man-made islands will remain above water? Did China factor climate change and rising sea levels into their SCS strategy? Or have they overreached in their attempts to establish hegemony over this body of water? One good storm could erase all of China’s hard work in an afternoon. These (below) and other Chinese journals are beginning to sound the alarm about rising sea levels in the South China sea.
http://www2.ouc.edu.cn/xbywb/english/index.asp
http://www.jto.ac.cn/CN/volumn/current.shtml
It is helpful to recall that these bases China has established are built on atolls and sandbars that are merely a few inches or feet above sea level at high tide.
I’ve considered that too — but during construction there were some photos that emerged and it looks like there’s over a meter’s additional buffer space from where high tide would be, which is more than enough to account for expected 2100 sea levels which has been estimated to rise between 18-59 cm. To be honest I think it would have been immensely stupid of them to have constructed this thing if they did not consider possibilities like the rise of sea levels or storms — or yes, high tide >_>
[And of course they can also conduct further reclamation activities in due time to compensate for any rise in sea level as well — I have a feeling they can dredge faster than the sea can rise]
It’s also important to remember that what they’ve built there is actually far more structurally sound than a lot of the other small outposts other nations have in the SCS, therefore if there is a storm big enough to wipe out China’s reclaimed islands, then it will probably be big enough to wipe out every other outpost of every single player in the SCS (Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan etc), and would likely do a lot of damage to regional SCS nations as well.
And the islands themselves probably won’t help in establishing hegemony of any sort, that would be virtually inevitable during peacetime with the larger presence of the Chinese Navy’s ships in SCS to begin with. What the islands will be able to do is help provide a greater presence for protecting China’s territorial claims in the overall larger territorial dispute mess in the SCS.
I suppose this should have been posted in PLAAF thread, but artificial islands just seemed so….naval.
Yeah, if the story was fit to a category, the navy would definitely come the closest.
In due time they could become a sort of naval air station.
The only reason I’m a little hesitant of associating the reclaimed islands with the Navy is because at this stage it would be a bit premature to predict it will become inevitably highly militarized.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/imp_navigator/17993765/539831/539831_original.jpg
China has landed civilian aircraft on this huge artificial -island.
Not strictly Navy related — I think the Navy’s role is mostly providing security for the airspace and the waters around the island and also to maintain a permament presence in SCS in general.
Blitzo,
Came up in reference to some digging I was doing about the Taiwanese adding an IIR capability to their HF-2 weapons many years ago. Shortly afterwards I noticed a few articles on water fog research appearing….sure there’ll be some sources online for the Googling. Its not exactly like there are many shocking revelations possible in this technology area. That is of course unless someone has figured out how to tether fog! 🙂
Ah right, well that could explain the possible articles that may have emerged from the time.
Its open source that the Chinese are playing with water fog for optical/IR screening….
Wait, what? I wasn’t aware of this.
I mean, it makes sense and would be well within their capabilities, but I do not recall any specific articles or rumours explicitly stating it.
you should do a search and look at all the older threads in this forum.
But key forums isn’t really the go to resource for confirmation or denial of Chinese military developments, if that is the basis of your conclusion, it’s a rather small and poorly representative sample
A significant moment for china’s aviation industry, WS10 engine is finally moving ahead towards equiping single engine J10:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]241342[/ATTACH]
It is indeed significant.
Though I’d like to wait until we see many more J-10s equipped with WS-10s to acknowledge the milestone.
The national interest website is not much better than a tabloid these days… and articles like this aren’t really helping its reputation. I think most of the members here know how useless directly comparing two aircraft is, unless one is interested in a pissing contest.
Take your point Blitzo but its still factoring down as, at best, 3 deployable at any given time perhaps with another working-up/at x days readiness….and that best part of a decade away. Until then……???
Well, the IN are obviously still developing their surface combatant escort fleet, and while having only 3 true air defence destroyers for the entire navy is not optimal, it’s better than what they had (or rather didn’t have) prior to the P15As entering service.
That said, I can’t help but wonder whether it would have been better for the IN to induct a larger number of capable escort ships prior to commissioning their new carrier, rather than inducting both the carrier and the first escorts at almost the same time period.
The debate over SAM density has gone on a very long time and I imagine wont be resolved any time soon. There is a school of thought that says a multi-dozen saturation antiship missile attack is practically so hard to coordinate, within a realtime targeting window, that a ship doesnt need an extremely large SAM arsenal. In reality there will never be enough confirmable targets presenting themselves to require hundreds of missiles to shoot back at them.
Then there is the further argument that a competent attacker, one possessed of a large enough AShM inventory to mount streaming/saturation attacks, would not expose its launch platforms to an opposing naval area SAM MEZ and, therefore, cheaper SHORADS ‘missile-soak’ defence is the optimum. This is especially the case when there is organic Fleet Air Defence from a carrier, on call to the group, to ‘shoot the archer not the arrows’.
If those arguments hold merit then the modest SAM battery is fine and the design decision to proritise multirole over mission specificity is more valid. People point to the fact that no Sea Dart shooter, in the one ‘modern’ high intensity sea-air battle we’ve seen, fully depleted its initial wartime onload of missiles to support this assertion. Myself I’m not convinced either and tend to agree with you that a few more would be prudent…even if it were at the expense of other systems…where those systems are duplicated on other ship classes.
Yes, it is possible that IN isn’t as worried about facing opponents of the highest calibre that are able to conduct very organized saturation attacks. Pakistan might have that capability to a small degree but they’re hardly at Russian Naval Aviation or Chinese Naval Aviation levels, and I suppose an IN CSG could do quite well with two P15A/Bs as the main air defence shield in most engagements that the IN may be looking to operate against near its home turf.
Obviously if the IN were looking to operate independently in the western pacific against the full capability of the Chinese Navy, Air Force, and 2nd Artillery then their air defence ships would likely require much heavier air defence, but I don’t think that’ll be on the cards in the foreseeable future… and Chinese naval forces in the Indian Ocean likely won’t have the ability to conduct large saturation attacks for at least the next decade or so, at least until they get a fully operational carrier, as well as many more 052Ds in service along with 055s.
Indeed. Multistatic operation still relies on good passive detection qualities of course. Passive itself will still be a key operational technique for a unit dragging a tail, even an active-capable tail fitout, as well. Working in close to a big unit isnt the best way to get clear water for detection and there’s a reason why CODLAG suddenly became fashionable for frigates towing passive arrays.
No contention that theres anything wrong with this hull having the sensor fit it does…US Burkes are similarly comprehensive of course…thing is though that there are a lot of Burkes to go around and there arent set to be all that many Kolkata’s. You wonder how the discussion is going to go in the combat centre when the ASW PWO wants to open the range from its HVU to prosecute contacts and the AAW PWO points out his need to keep close station up threat!. If you have three or four Kolkata’s in the screen no problem….if not….hard to see the screen commander not sending a frigate out to ASW picket!.
To be fair, IN will be getting another 4 P15Bs, which should hopefully all be in service by the mid 2020s, to make seven such DDGs, which should add quite a bit of flexibility to the IN’s carrier escorting mission.
One thing I don’t get with the P15A and P15B, is why their SAM load is so small, at only 32 Barak 8s. That is about the loadout of a typical air defence frigate, rather than a destroyer.
Everything else — the 16 AShMs, the MF-STARs mounted atop a mast for high radar horizon, the planned ASW suite, and the twin helicopters are all good and expected for a modern, heavy hitting surface combatant of any mid to large size navy… but 32 SAMs seem too few for a true ship of this weight class.
I was wondering if the P15Bs would increase the number of SAMs from the P15As, but the armament between the two seem almost identical, apart from P15B having a larger calibre main gun.