Thanks for that, I though that was the case but couldnt recall for definate.

was a sad day when the Buccaneer fleet was retired

I believe that I need to go back on what Lindermayer said :

??? :confused:
– The Judge : “Irrelevant , the Procurer clearly stipulated his question and backed it up with known and admitted facts“
– The Procurer : “Yes and I ask the Defender to respond to the question !“
– The Defence Advocate : “Objection !“
– The judge : “Refused“
– The Defense Advocate : ………………………….

What would you say Lindermyer ?

You just can ‘t brushed off the latest meetings . You also noted the weak responses from the various Typhoon ‘ s people .
Something happened and some have to deal with it ASAP , I ‘m talking about upgrading the Typhoon ‘s radar and onboard electronics .

5 years ago , I would have chosen to be in a Typhoon against a late Russian fighter . Today , I have almost changed my mind :o:mad:

Europe should have left the Eurofighter program and followed Dassault .
We would be better of now , the European Rafale would be F4+ with a price tag of around 45 millions Euros for a C version , 50 millions for a B version (twin seater) and 55 millions for the M (Navy version) .
The Logistics would also be a breeze 🙂
The Interoperability would be second to none Worldwide 🙂

Cheers .

I never said you were bashing, I said the way you presented youre argument was akin to trolling

Rafale smaked typhoon 15 – 1 thats a 7-2 ratio lolz rafal is uber . Is akin to trollng

rephrased as why do recent dact exercises appear to heavilly favour the rafale is a discussion point.

bacK to the exercise in question

The RAF (british armed forces in general ) tend to be a bit tight lipped hence you wont get a u press release along grand claudes line.

I have allready pointed out that he refered to a particular set of engagements with those results – what about the other engagements he didnt mention where the score was more realistic.

Happen in the quoted exercises the typhoon pilots really stuffed it up, and the results reflect pilot error – there is so much we dont know

Again i will say this it was dact, it was a scripted exercise it proves nothing.

2 typhoons took on 7 F15s and downed the lot – did it happen probably, is it realistic no.

You no my take on both aircraft from SP (the name chage Lynstyne to lindermyer was an admin issue on my part)- but again for the record

I dont believe there is a huge difference in rcs between the (2 rcs reduction being applied to the aerodynamic design as opposed to f22/f35 approach).

Spectra does nothing DASS or a dozen other systems cant do

The typhoon should and allways will be the better air defence aircraft its what it was designed round, egvery big radar for its size

rafale should allways be the better low altitude fighter and GA aircraft.

P.S integrate side winder and Amraam, it will increase its appeal.

regards

Ok step away from the keyboard – youre dangerously close to breaking into proper plumber theory, – it made me cry years ago.

Lindermyer, no i was quoting someone saying there was ram on blades
i think its nonsense

@ Erkokite
blogs opinion ? come on give a decent link or quote and bill and apa dont count

Ah probably an internet rumour then, a bit like active stealth, ram coated refuelling probes, and honest politicions

Concurrently, November 16, the Rafale gave, according to the french pilot, a memorable beating to the RAF Typhoon – the most recent version – which were also deployed in the UAE for the ATLC. To put it bluntly, Lieutenant-Colonel Grandclaudon said the two air battles – battles with IR-guided missile and cannon – which opposed Rafale and Typhoon gave a score of 7 wins for the first and 0 for the second, the only Rafale considered as having been destroyed flew below the allowed flight floor ! Obviously this statement has immediately raised an outcry among British pilots, relayed by the media and the Anglo-Saxon specialized blogosphere, including claims that the Typhoon does not fly as such during the fighting, but simulated “red” attackers, MiG-29 and Su-27 in that case. So ,the 1/7 Provence squadron leader made a point to recall that 2 of his Rafale were also”red chest” (MiG-29 index “Charlie”) when they shot down 4 “blue” Typhoon – flying as Typhoon – while being reduced to use virtual russians AA-10C missiles to be guided by the Rafale until the impact on their target, which forbade to shoot multiple targets at once . For Fabrice Grandclaudon, the limitations of the “red” plastron role don’t prevent a weapons system to show its real capabilities, because the pilots are taking advantage of the real human-machine interfaces and sensors on board, one of the Rafale has benefited from a refresh of its tactical situation by his teammate via Link-16. In other words, even if some of them simluated Su-27, the British pilots virtually shoot down were using the sensors and the avionics of their Typhoon and not those of a Su-27! And the french pilot to recognize, with great sportsmanship, that the Typhoon pilots who had been opposed to the Rafale the week preceding the ATLC were young and relatively inexperienced, as the French already benefits from lessons learned from 3 operational detachments in Afghanistan (one year of presence in all) and 4 of its pilots had participated in Red Flag 2008.

Not That I suppose it will mae the slightest bit of difference. but i thought it had been established all round (and from himself also) that mr Grandclaudons comments, were accurate, but did not reflect the whole story and that they were a bit tongue in cheek, and have been taken somewhat out of context.

The French clearly had a good day and deserve the bragging rights, but lets not get carried away and rewrite the history of air warfare.

And for the record I doubt the validity of all such claims from Dact exercises whatever the aircraft involved.

[QUOTE=Bluewings;1571129]Grim901 :

Yes , there is another alternative : Europe should build 5 similar Carriers , 1 for France , 2 for the UK , 1 for Spain and 1 for Italy . Then we all go with 2 different aircraft : Rafale and “Seaphoon” . The UK and Italy with Seaphoon , France and Spain with Rafale .

I assume you mean 1 additional for france for a toatal of 2
What have the technology and the money , only the will is lacking unfortunately .

No in the UK sadly we dont have the money, thats what happens when the social security budget alone amounts to more than the total raised in income tax.

Seaphoon wont happen there is to much that will need to be rchanged to make this viable and for the limited production run it probably wont be economically viable, if it is practical.

As for Rafale I dont see that happening, economies of scale again, assuming the whole F35 project goes belly up then the Shornet is the better prospect, most of what we have equipment wise is allready integrated, It will be more widely used and available, Boing can probably offer us a better workshare package than dassault.

More cynically that leaves us with 1 Euro + 1 US bird giving us a foot in both camps. 9same with the F35

Yes . “Stealth” is only one factor amongst others . 99% of the World aircraft are NOT stealthy and they can still get the job done .
The Rafale is a very good example .

Reductions in RCS are the future -no its not the be all and end all – but every little helps. against hi tech foes with awacs the rafale/tornado approach is a lot more vulnerable

The USMC has it wrong this time . The USAF should have gone for a F-22B (fighter-bomber)

Not sure what you mean here The USMC requirement is for a STOVL aircraft, has been for years – should it have been harrier 3 and the ESN/USAF gone another way, well thats an argument.

STOVL
True , RN ‘s mistake and a critical one . They were just too shy and too conservative . I blame the RN .

I Disagree
As someone who origionaly hoped for a few Bs as harrier replacements and then Cs for the RN/RAF mixed force , have been convnced that perhaps the navy may have this right.

1) Stovl inferiority – whilst on paper slower etc the whole Harrier is only for airshows myth was laid to rest in 1982. i expect the F35B to also perform well- the trick is to fly to youre strengths not youre opponents.

2) training it will be easier to maintain currency in the limited pool of pilots on the stovl .

3) Stovl carriers can maintain a higher sortie rate.

4) Stovl carriers do not need to turn into the wind to launch recover and can continue to operate in sea states beyond those of ctol carriers (a useful attribute in the south atlantic)

I disagree . Its “stealth” will not save it against Mig-31s or late Flankers .
First , a F-35 maximum dash speed with external stores is probably around Mach 1.3-1.4 (top speed clean is Mach 1.6), that ‘s a Mach less than the Russian fighters 😮

Probaly subsonic with bombs hanging off most aircraft are

Stealth will make it harder to detect, thats an increase in survivabillity, external stores can be jetisoned and top speed is not entirely relevent, Rafale, hornet, F15 arent going to run far supersonically, Typhoon may be a little quicker than the others (assuming it can supercruise to a worth while degree) but not significantly.

1 Dont be seen
2 dont be aquired
3 dont be engaged
4 Dont be killed
the F35 can do No 1 better than the rafle Et al, so its less likely to have to deal with 2&3 straight away 4 is reduced.

The Russians also have great Radars , rather good ECMs , excellent IRSTs and long range IR missiles . It is going to be like sheetahs against a wildboar .

The F-35B is not going to satisfy any user , I bet my next paycheck on it .

Hold that thought.

The government did tell the ferry companies they could carry on more walk-ons. Spain is still overloaded.

HMS Albion went to Spain to pick up British troops, but also had room for some civilians, so took them.

Those who’ve got to Santander & Bilbao haven’t ‘sat in Spain waiting to be rescued’: they’ve travelled considerable distances, some from other continents. I know of one person who’s now in Spain, trying to work out the best way home, because his attempt to fly home from SE Asia came to a juddering halt in Athens. The trains from there via the Balkans were so slow he gave up on them, he couldn’t buy a bus or train ticket via Italy because they were all full, so he flew to Barcelona because he thought it would give him more chances to get home. There are many others like him, busting guts to get home because they have good reasons to be there. And you say they’re ‘just the lazy’.

You’re a nasty piece of work, aren’t you?

To be Honest hes coming accross as a bit of a Troll really.

But I will make the effort to explain. In short Controlled Words

people with cars are ok they are allready booked onto ferries in or out.

Anybody flying is stuck – it is these people (and lots of them) that the navy will collect. In fact as I got home I Myself thought I dont know why they dont send the amphibs and RFAs. Or am I just Glory Hunting.

There are few and far between places on ferries so big ques at the terminals.

there is a shortage of hire cars (there all at calais) Accross Europe.
Buses are full.
Trains well least said as the Bloody french are on strike AGAIN.
I personally Know people who had to pay the best part of 2Grand to hire a car from spain to St Malo (big fees 1 way journey+leaving it in a different country)

I got home because on thursday I booked a place on the ferry (Sunday was earliest) so if it looked Grim I had an option. It cost me about 500 Quid all told (Fuel tolls hotel ferry etc) and I am Lucky that the other half lives in france so i didnt have to rent a car. Train plans were scuppered.

So many people who are stuck at this point probably are.

Despite the massive inconvinience I am in favour of the Grounding of the aircraft fleets – (and as an aircraft engineer I am also concerned about the future of me and my colleagues if this continues).

Really sir Grow up and Get a grip, stop looking for conspiracys.

P.S I may have quoted the wrong Bit.

My better half is French and speaks fluent english but its suprising how big a language barrier we have once colloquillisms come into it[/COLOR]

unlike myself it appears