Hi Ference:

Terrible sorry for the late of the reply.

I’m not in house (in my city) in this moment and will return by the end of the day, then I can send you that VTA OOB (I must have one, I remind to have Russian, and Soviet one)…

Do you find your PVO OOB in orbat.com?…it have SAM and radio-electronic forces?? 😮

Regards

No prob Ference, tomorrow I will post them here

Have fun

Pit :p

Samster:

WHAT DO YOU KNOW about the training of soviet pilots?

What do you know about the training of soviet pilots in East Germany (by far the elite of them)…

What do you know about the training of “Guard Regiments”, when that means NOTHING, because there is no “gap” between the training of Guards and non guards regiments in the Soviet Air Forces/Air Defense Forces?

What do you know about the training syllabus of East European pilots compared to their soviets analogs??

Did you know that East european pilots (and all other air forces) buying soviet a/c never received SAME training/tactics manual than the Soviet themselves?…they trained it in a fashion “learn how to take off, how to land, and how to do an stern-conversion and that’s all”…

HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT _EXACTLY_ A SYRIAN PILOTS TRAIN COMPARED TO A SOVIET PILOT? (I enfatize, no offense there)…

Did you have the KBP of those AFs?…did you have (for example) the flght books of those AFs?…

Sorry…but because I know the answer is “no”, I’m very confident of this…

You can’t compare soviet and syrians pilots, that’s all…

And I’m not saying who is superior 😎

About Roni Raygun being the responsible for the collapse of the USSR…well…that’s very very questionable…the USSR would implode with or without Raygun…the bad decisions were made in the sixties, not in the eighties…

Also, the USSR was worst during the post-WW2 era, with the US building atomic bombs and they running across a reconstruction of the country/military/atomic research…the pressure then was far worst…

And about Ronnie…well…excuse me for cut your enthusiasm here, but we were not talking about a “hot cold war”?…or we turn to “legacies of dead american president”?…so?

Hey Budies!

I have readen in this forum since nearly…two or three years…never writted, but this time I can’t resist!

Srbin wrottes:
“I too don’t think there was much Air Superiority from NATO in the 1980s at all, there were too few F-15s equipped with AIM-7 only and all the F-16s and I mean ALL were equipped with Sidewinders during the 1980s, they had no BVR weapons until AIM-120 I believe till 1991. Not only the F-16 would have to fight a 1:3 ratio in numbers against WarPact fighters such as Su-17 and Mig-23 and Mig-25, it was even more outclassed by early Mig-29s with R77 ad R27.”

Well, the number of BVR machines in Europe, yes was awfully low. The USAFE (USAF Europe) mantained 72 F-15C Eagle at Bitburg (36 TFW, 22/53/525TFS), those were the first birds to receive the MSIP-II upgrade IIRC from 1986), plus 18 F-15C (no MSIP-II) at Soesteber, Netherlands (32 TFS). That was all frompart of the USAF. The Canadian Air Forces, mantained a number of CF-18 Hornet (No 409/421/436 Squadron) at Lahr with a total of 36 machines. The RAF Germany had by the time 2 units of F-4M FRG2 –IIRC- at Wildenrath ( No 19/92 Sqn)…ant that was all. All the other units were Sidewinder only. The 16 Vosdushnaya Armiya (DDR, HQ Wunsdorf) had a total of 9 IAP (Istrebitelnyi’ Aviatsnoiya Polk – Fighter Aviation Regiments) in 2 Tactical Air Corps (in wartime each would be in fact an Air Army supporting the attack of each front, the Northern Tactical Air Corp (also called 60th Tactical Air Corp HQ Postdam) would support the 1st Western Front (with the 3rd Combined Arms Army (formerly 3rd Shock Army), the 2 Guard Tanks Army and the 20th Guards Army, and the 1st Poland Army as Second Echelon), meanwhile the 61 Air Tactical Corps would support the 2nd Western Front (with the 8th Guards Army, the 5th East German Army, 1st Guards Tank Army, the 2nd Polish Army as Second Echelon forces). The LSK/LV (East German Air Forces and Air Defense Forces) would be used mainly as Air Defense assets (indeed the 2 Air Defense Divisions, the 1 and 3 LVD are patterned from Voyska-PVO Divisions with 2-3 Fighter Regiments and 1 SAM Brigade, +2 SAM Regiments, plus lots of Radio-technical assets) and I tend to beleive they would be subordinated to the 16VA (with the 3 LVD subordinated to the 1st Western Front (i.e 60 Tactical Air Corps of the 16VA) and the 1 LVD to the 2nd Western Front (i.e 61 Tactical Air Corps). The FO-FMTK (basically the Air to Ground Support and Transport forces) is a tricky thing, no idea, but maybe mixed between the 2 Fronts. In the Czechoslovakia, it would be formed the 1st Central Front, drained from the 5 Divisions of the 1st and 4th Czechoslovakian Armies. The intersting thing here is how did the Central Group of Forces (5 Soviet Divisions stationed in Czechoslovakia) fitted with this. The thing that attracts my attention is that while the 1st CLD Army is at full strenght (4 Divisions, the 1st Tank, and the 2nd, 19, 20 Motorised Rifle Divisions) the 4th CLD Army only had a single Division (of four) at full strenght. The CGF is composed of an Army Corps (not to be confused with the Combined Arms Structure Army Corps formed in the Bielorrusian Military District from 1982 to 1989 –from the 120 GvMRD “Rogachev Guards”), the 28th with two divisions (31 Tank, 30 GvMRD) and three Divisions not attached to any Army!…just like the NFG (Poland with two Divisions god knows responding who!)….I tend to beleive that the 3 Soviet Divisions directly reporting to the CGF would be in fact attached adminitrative to the 4th CLD Army, with an structure of 2 Armies running in the First Echelon (both of the CLD, 1st and 4th) an Army Corps (28th) used if possible as a OMG for exploting succes to the operational-strategic level, and the remanents (the other 3 divisions of the 4th Army understrenght and 2 Divisions of the reserve (Eastern military Area, 13 and 14th Tank Divisions) would be used as sechond echelon forces or as a combined arms reserve. In fact the narrower and difficult terrain of the 1st Central Front running towards the CENTAG (i.e the VII Corps (US) and the II Korps (GE)) doesn’t need to be as strong as the other fronts…

In Poland, the powerful Poland Popular Army would have the unique task of forming an entire Front. If the 1st and 2nd Western Front, and the 1s Central Front, are commanded by Soviet High Command (Wundsdorf, Milovice and maybe Legnica for the 1st Western Front) the Poles received (after long time) in 1962 or 61 the oportunity to form the Coastal Front. This Front would have the difficult work of closing the Baltic Sea to the NATO, and attacks toward the Schwellig-Holstein area in the FRG and Denmark (specially the Zealand islands). For this, this front would have the 5th East German Army running at first echelon (during the 80s this army had two tasks, one was breakthrough the area of the I Corps (NE) on the axis Salzwedel- Lüneburg, and then taking the control of Wümme by D+1, then by D+2 seize a crossing across the Weser along a Parachutnik Desant (Airborne Landing), maybe using the 13 DShBr (Air Assault Brigade, HQ Cottbus)…I know that one of the VDD (Vosdushno Desantnie Division) would be used to take bridges across the Rhine. Then this Army would run by D+7 or D+9 and take an area around Meppen by then the Army would be supplanted by Second Echelon Forces from the 1st Western Front. The another task was an attack towards Schweliig-Holstein. Along this and for actions towards Denmark, the Coastal Front had the most amazing cornucopia of Special and Elite Forces of any front. The 6 PDPD/PBPD/BDSz “Pomeranian” the Elite Forces of the Pole Army would attack towards the Zealand Archipealague by means of an Airborne Operation, along those guys, the 7 Naval Landing Division (Blue Berets, the formers Red Berets) of the Poland 1st Army would land there too. Along these the Desantnik and Morskoy Pesokhty Forces stationed in the Baltic Military District/Baltic Fleet would attack Denmark (the 7 GvVDD at Kaunas and the 336 Gv OBrMP from Baltiisk). Supporting then, the 2 Spetsnaz GRU Brigades attached to the Baltic MD/Baltic Fleet (4 oBrSpN and the 4 MRP SpN)…along those boys in the second echelon, the 4th Pole Army of the Wasarw Military District and the whole of the Baltic Military District are responsible of this sector…not a nice situation…

If You see it as a top-down it looks something like this…

AFNORTH (Scwellig-Holestein, Denmark) —> Coastal Front

NORTHAG (I Corps (BE), I Corps (BR), I Corps (GE), I Corps (NE) —> parts of the Coastal Front, 1st Western Front

CENTAG (III Corps (GE), V Corps (US), VII Corps (US), II Corps (GE)) —-> 2nd Western Front and 1st Central Front…..

Not a nice situation…

BTW, at difference of the LSK/LV, the Air Forces of Poland and Czechoslovakia (always forgot those strange names) had both Air Defense tasked-forces (patterned after V-PVO) and Tactical Air Forces (patterned after Frontovaya Aviatsiya)…in the case of the Czechoslovakian Air Forces and Air Defense Forces I Don’t know if these would merge with the 131 Mixed Air Division (the only Soviet non-army size Air Unit deployed in Eastern Europe), but who would controls who (I tend to beleive that the 131 Mixed Air Division would control the whole of the air assets there)…in the case of the Coastal Front, the VERY offensive-patterned Tactical Air Forces of Poland (with more than 100 Su-22M4/UM3 Fitters) would be (very possible) merged with the 4 VA (1 IAD (Air Defense Division, by 1989 2 Flanker Regiments, one Flogger-K Regiment), 1 BAD (3 Bomber Regiments with Su-24/24M) along recce assets, C2 and helo assets. This combined Air Army (And I ten to beleive it would be controled BY the Soviets) would be under the command of the Polish Staff of the Coastal Front (off course reporting one way or another to STAVKA 😉

Since the lates 80s, in the GDR and Poland did appears Air Forces of the Navy (in the GDR including in time of war the JG 9 and the MFG-28) due the restrictions of the CFE treaty…I don’t know how they would operate in war.

Seahawk says:
“If NATO could disperse all fighter and surivive the initial ballistic missile strike, and would have been ablt to meet the first WarPac strikes with all BVR fighters they had (F-15, F-104S, F-4, Mirage) then thy might would have had a chance.”

This in my country is called miracle ;), but if it works, yes it would be very useful!…

Hunting Hawk says:
“In the early 80’s NATO was thinking of a way to attack the rear forces of the Warsaw Pact. This plan was called FOFA-Follow On Forces Attack. What do people here think of this plan ? Should NATO have wasted serious vital resources in attacking the Follow on forces ?”

What HH shows is one of the most intersting things NATO (err…US) try to mount in the 80s, the FOFA concept, an air/land depth battle (errr….soviet doctrine anybody ;)?) for the WHOLE of the NATO, it basically talks about attacking multiple echelons of soviet advances from the tactical level (division/regiment level) to strategi level (fronts), if you guys read all these documents (I have readen 1 year back worth reading!) you will see that in the WHOLE 80s, US nor less NATO never had all the necasy things for this works. The Deep strike PGM assets (F-15E with LANTIRN) were off of the scene, Tornado IDS/GR.MK1 didn’t have PGM at enough numbers (and in some times they didn’t have anything at all), F-111 fleet would be overstressed (the queen of the hangar after all 😉 not to talk that only the 72 F-111F of Lakenhearth (IIRC) can use PGM, anyway, NATO lacked the surveillance assets (J-STARS only come in the 90s, and lots of other programs specially the UAV ones were cancelled or differed), most of the munitions (yes the USAF have lots of LGBs and Mavericks…and the rest of the NATO?), numbers (not enough), SEAD assets…etc…not to talk that the damn initiative was at the begining not acepted at all in NATO due comercial/economical reasons (they see it as “BUY AMERICAN BUY AMERICAN!”), and the emphasis of the second echelon forces in the Soviet fashion could be replaced if tactical supriseis archieved in the first 48 hours….in the end, maybe today FOFA could work as the damn hell (advanced PGM, JDAMs, Cruise Missiles, extremly good surveillance at tactical level, etc) but then…sorry. Anyway the soviets see it as a big thread and apply countermeasures to then, but the declive of the Soviet society kill the practical work (but the teoretical, specially talking about the non-linear fashion of future wars survived)…

Djnik says:

“I suggest you guys read “Red Storm Rising” by Tom Clancy and see the author’s view of how a Soviet attack on Europe would take place.It is different then mentioned by all the people above.Pretty good book,so i suggest to you guys!I read it twice myself.”

I have readen, along with Cardinal of the Kremlin, Hunt For Red October (ROCKS!) and other things. Dramatically is gold, good characters, good feeling, its an atractive lecture. As a military techno-thriller is BS, this poor guy never ever has readen ANYTHING about Soviet Doctrine, Military Science, Military Art, Strategy, Operational Art or Tactics, he knows nothing about how the soviets worked and it appears not too much how the western worked…so If anybody wants an exiting and relaxed lecture, leeeeeee’ts go…if you want realism, you’re better playing Falcon 4!!!

“John Hackett’s books (The Third World War and a sequel to that) are a lot better than Clancy’s.”

Yes, but Hackett’s books follow an stablished pattern accord an argument written by the author, some times is incredible and unrealistic (the soviets seems as ten-feets giants, and the part of the nuclear release is not really realistic)….bah, but after all is really good…and you know what’s the worst!?, I LOSE MY ONLY COPY!, in a pretty sad beach accident….NOO!!…what about Ralph peters “Red Army”?

ELP says:
“Again for the short sighted: Things that would have made any suprise near impossible:

-SLAR recon over the horizon several times a day

-ELINT/COMINT/SIGINT traffic monitored

-Potsdam treaty- Both sides had military people in cars that drove around in east and west germany.

Good luck on there being any suprise.”

Damn!, ELP you’re a THREAD KILLER :D, since 3 years that’s the only thing you says : (, about surprise, ask that to the poor Czhecoslovakian people, 1968 :D…and yes tell that to the poor USMLM guys that were kicked in their asses when (very commonly) the soviets make 60% of the DDR “Temporaly Restricted Area”… 😀

Holger Sans say:

“At that time was the nasty surprise of Lebanon 1982 “Beekaa”. It were the counterclaims of the SU to save the reputation of former SU-weapons-system.”

More important than the the stupids Soviet counter-clames is the fact that most of the equipment (specially the MiG-23) was NOT USED ALONG THE DOCTRINE FOR WHAT IT WAS BUILD…you don’t use the MiG-23 in RAF patterns (IrAF) as much as you don’t stupidely use Soviet low-level tactics, with a mixed of British Doctrine, foolish local experience and an inept (and western trained) High Command….says something?, it’s called Irak 😉

“This were just three of several more target areas there.
Please find out, from which ABs in the former GDR they took-off?
Distances to their targets?
What units/fighter could they exspect there.
On which GDR training areas were those attacks trained?
The stunning success of Moked 1967 and the interdiction missions from 1973 had left their marks in the SU/WP planning.
The GDR/Poland air units were tasked to defend the battlefield and hinterland,
to free the Russian units for striking missions.”

Some of the names of the regiments in the chart (from the awesome four books of Freuntz series isn’t) are wrong. Su-24 units (only before 1988/1989 when they were retired from 16VA in exchange for MiG-27 and MiG-23MLD/29 fighter units) were part of the 128 BAD (two regiments at Brand and Grossenhain) were BAPs not APIBs (those are fighter bomber regiments)…also…not a single of those regiments seem to concord with the info I have!!! The Shturmovik units, not even the IAP!…where in the hell did you find that???, from wich year???, are those units from the interior of the Soviet Union or what 😀 ?

“The stunning success of Moked 1967 and the interdiction missions from 1973 had left their marks in the SU/WP planning.”

Yeah, but much was formed (as usually) on the experiences of the great patriotic war…but the Air base of Laage (the biggest ever in Germany) is a direct response to the 6 Days War 😀

“The GDR/Poland air units were tasked to defend the battlefield and hinterland,
to free the Russian units for striking missions.”

Not all of them, only the Air Defense, the rest would attack…if not, why the poles had more than 100 Fitters?, or the Czhes those nice 39 Su-25K?…

GarryB says:
“I think the best analogy I have heard from a Russian General was that when two gunfighters in the old west face off they don’t start by spitting and then punching and then throwing bottles and chairs and then going for their guns… if the other guy has a comparable gun to you you don’t risk having your hands occupied picking up a chair to throw if he might draw his gun and shoot you. You look the other guy in the eye and you draw”

This “Russian General” is Soviet Harry Potter AKA Victor Suvorov (and the ******* even stole that great name!), errr Victor Rezun, Colonel of the GRU defected to the UK in 1979, and from then author of an hillarant “Worst than Clancy” series of books about everythings…some of their works (like inside of the Soviet Army and Spetsnaz: Inside the Soviet SAS, are absolutely BS, full of magic)…, in fact that phrase comes from the “Axe Doctrine” of his Inside the Soviet Army book ;)…be careful..

Seahawk says:
“The East Germans and the Russians were ready to move out in a very short time, but that also meant that they did not practice much and espcially not as large formations.”

So Comrade-in-Arms-80 was an illusion ;)?, what about ZAPAD-81?, ZAPAD-83?. Dvyna-70? (200.000 Soviet troops)…uhmmm lots of big exercises (40.000-60.000 troops), and from time to time really BIG exercises (+100.000/200.000)…

“So if NATO would detect a change in their training, then Reforger would have started. That was confirmed by many sources.”

And how much smothly would REFORGER works previus of war?, is one thing to move 20.000 troops and take the equipment of a Brigade-size unit from a POMCUS set, and move a pair of Brigades from CONUS (a process that takes nearly a month)…a totally different thing is to move “in less than 24 hours” more than 100.000 troops, take the equipment of all the damn III Corps (US) stationed in southern-western FRG, Belgium and Netherlands, then march allllllll the way to the sector of the I Corps (NE) and the Soviets (they’re stupid off course) don’t do nothing, the american troops in 2 days move 100.000 troops a day after they’re in battle posts along the IGB and say “Hello here I’m” :D, jokes, jokes…the biggest REFORGER was IIRC Reforger-84, when the whole damn 1st Cavalry Division flew to FRG and takes their equipment from POMCUS depots…only a single division and in peace time :D…and the soviets didn’t reinforce, never call the reserve, nor the WAPA countrys….

“How effective would a 60+ planes raid be, if the pilots are only used to fly in pairs ?”

Prove it 😉

“Luckily we will never know.”

Biggest true of the day 😉

Arthur says:
“Oh yes they did. There was relatively little cross-national drilling (few combined Polish-Soviet exercises for example), but most WarPac forces did have exercises on an absolutely massive scale. Just like ReForGer in the West, the Soviets would have at least one massive drill every two years or more often if required (enough to make every conscript experience such a massiveo operation at least once), and absolutely huge exercises every five or six years. For the size of those huge exercises: think 2000 aircraft airborne at one time, and double that number of tanks rolling “

Oh yes, but how did the 1980-1981 period fitt in?, in 1980 the MASSIVE Comrade-in-Arms-80 exercise (all the WAPA countrys involved) the NATO was so scared about the size of the exercise than called ReForGer…then in 1981 ZAPAD-81 IIRC the biggest ever exercise of the Soviet Army in that decade…then ZAPAD-83…yeah those times were great, BTW in 1979 the Soviets made an Air Force exercise simulating an Air Offensive, read this quoted from an article I have:

“The results of historical assessment and the experience of training exercises have led the Soviets to conclude that “despite the difficulties, the destruction of enemy air assets in the theater of action can be achieved in a short time by wise and clever actions.” In addition to citing the Israeli destruction of the Arab air forces in the 1967 Middle East War as a practical example of the successful execution of an air operation in the contemporary period, the Voroshilov General Staff Academy lecture materials cite the following example:
During one training exercise, where strikes were delivered against 313 aircraft positioned on ten dummy airfields, 45 percent of the aircraft, all runways, and 51 percent of command posts were destroyed. In addition 43 percent of radar posts, 45 percent of SAM control points, and 43 percent of antiaircraft artillery batteries were knocked out.”

The exercise was from the late 70s…

“True. One of the reasons the world was actually closer to WW3 in 1983 than it was in 1962…”

Able Archer-83, Soviet Paranoia and Operation VRYAN are a bad mix!

SH:

“Daily training on the other hand consisted of more or less boring and routine flying. For the NVA (East German Airforce) it was often limited to easy intercepts and navigational training. Very few air to air training.”
It was patterned after the V-PVO after all 😉

All for today, more later