Like to talk with RN fellows, let’s see how can I manage my english here…

No general problem with TVM, it does have advantages, just not at sea. Are you familiar with the concept of virtual attrition?.

Me familiar with many concepts (yank concepts), so if you know that concept on NWP “language” please go ahead 😉

Now if we’re talking “civilian mode on”, that reminds me of the old “air defense equation” where D = A+B+C where D was the total fire engagements cycles in air defense that could be made, along A being the number of fire channels, B the number of cycles of AAW shots you can get taking into account the range of the weapon, the speed of the weapon (and the Vc created between the incoming target and your own, you can’t fire on RMin targets, don’t you?) and C the pK estimated for that kind of weapon…

So let’s per example made a typical “equation”, where we’re talking about an ASPIDE-1A armed ship with just one FCR (RTN-10X, lets say), ASPIDE-1A have a max “good range” of maybe…14 Km, min range of 1,5 Km, and a Vmax of 730 m/s (could be off, but this is my example), let’s give it a pK against “incoming target” of 0,6, and let’s say the max number of fire cycles is just 2…

So D= 1 x 2 x 0,6 = 1,2…

So that mades possible number of target shot downs with single missile fire of 1,2…

But now we can start stretching the thingie and changing RoF (not Shot-look-shoot but shoot-shoot-kill and increase the pK) or taking into account per example, factors along the way the incoming attack is made (simultaneous incoming missiles against succesive incoming missiles), the way we calculate “B” taking into account the residual time between the SAM Vmax and the incoming target Vmax (Vc) so that before the incoming targets reach the RMin zone of my AAW asset, how much “shoots” at different targets can I made…

What the hell, I learn that on a Harpoon 3 manual, but at some way, it’s sound…

And then you enter into the equation the CIWS factor (same equation, taking more values) and your EW probability of jamming…and so…

Is that what you mean?

If not this is an assessment of the amount of force/firepower required to achieve an objective. For example – I know how many fire channels a Burke class destroyer has, can calculate to within a couple of miles what its radar horizon from the SPG directors is and can start to develop its virtual attrition potential from there.

I’m not sure that we can apply this formula with this kind of example (AEGIS/SPY-1/SPG-62/SM-2), I have heard from people in the know (Spanish Navy or related to), that inside HRE, SPY-1D MCGU could bring the SM-2 missile so close to the target that there’s no need of CWI on the final leg (precission of MCGU is enough for blast damage of the big warhead)…that sounds stretched to me, but it could be a possibility…also we have to take into account, we don’t know how many MCGU the SPY-1D can sustain (have such a value ever be disclosed?), neither real times for SPG-62 CWI at the final leg of the interception path according to different range settins (same time for painting the target at let’s say, 30 Km than, let’s say…120 km?, let’s remind that CWI is dependent in its time, of the error of the MCGU according to real target position)…I don’t know how to apply this formula to this weapon systems, but for others, seems to be straight forward.

Once I have an approximate number of SM-2 shots, ESSM salvoes, Phalanx engagements, and softkill expend salvoes that the vessel can reasonably be expected to generate in an attack phase I can start to programme an attack with sufficient numbers/types of weapons to defeat that attrition potential – if I have the right force mix of delivery platforms and weapons to do the job. If not I can assess the likelihood of acquiring those systems, look for an unconventional attack method, or go back to my command authority and tell them to forget attacking a Burke.

Ok, that sounds a lot like that “ol Harpoon 3 manual equation”

This is the same exercise that was undertaken with the Kirov’s and Slava’s. TOP DOME is assessed as being able to engage x no. of targets, SHORADS another ‘y’ no. of targets. EW is estimated to be z% effective and can be expected to distract/seduce n no. of weapons. For the sake of illustration lets say that Kirov’s virtual attrition potential is 28 Harpoon class weapons. The USN know they need to programme in 28 Harpoons and THEN add in sufficient extra weapons to cause mission-kill damage potential on the hull. Perhaps another 8.

But that’s a so much simple approach (not per se it means it’s bad), it doesn’t take into accounts other soft kill measures, neither they way as per example chaff are deployed (seduction, confussion), or “rubben ducks” decoys…you launch a dozen of decoys along starboard, those big nice + 20.000 m2 RCS decoys, then launch chaff one Km astern and use your helo for seduction measures…how can you plan that into the assesment?…

Ok, I get your point, I’m just twisting the thing a little :diablo:, but naval warfare is a much creative issue to leave all to some nice formulas…of course I need them, I just want to know according to the surface duct height and my antennas height at what range can I intercept the TOP SAIL signals according to my ESM equipment :diablo:…nice maths…

The fact that I know that an S-300F shooter is limited to perhaps 6 simultaneous intercepts across a limited axis or even a pair of threat axes gives me an ability to programme that attack and a weakness that I can exploit in defeating the system. That is what I dont like about TVM/SARH/SACG. It goes as much against the SPG/SM-2 series as the S300F as well.

Accord to our ol’ friend N. Friedman, 120° azimut for Volna, thing I don’t know is that if you can mecanically move the Volna for chosing that attack axis (have you ever seen a pic of a Volna looking to starboard per example?)

It’s also a matter of statistical compromise, you will have to halve your attack force into the different attack axis in such a way to offer a full 360° degree WEZ for the ship so it can’t handle it, but at what expense?…I don’t think SPG-62/SM-2 is so much affected as this because illumination times are short.

Aster 30, as with any active seeker missile, has a saturation point that is so high it makes any attempt at a virtual attrition calculation a very difficult proposal.

But being an Active seaker missile is more ECM-prone that being a SARH homer guided by a multi-kW FCR, don’t you think?

And under the same formula we seems to understand, why not?, it’s a first grade bachellor physical problem (collision of two moving objects), missile speed is mostly constant, Aster-30 speed not, but you can get an average, let’s say we’re talking about HRE limited scenario (sea skimmig), so let’s try to predict at what range from your ship would Aster-30 and first SSM collide (impact), and also time, if the incoming missiles are simultaneous (attacking from different azimuth), take into account different times from VLS launch (let’s say ROF is 2 seconds between cell fire plus one second for Aster-30 missile to get into corret target interception course, so ROF is 3 seconds interval between missile launchs) and let’s get the thing repeated…my conclusions?, if missiles are subsonic, chances for the defending ship are higher because it have more time between engagements cycles, Vc is slower and you can repeat the total fire cycles many times…remind 12-16 targets max MCGU limit of SAMPSON for Aster-30/15, if we use shoot-shoot-look (launch two missiles for target for maximum pK) you will have to decide per example the engagement cycle (should I use six seconds of cell fire cicle latency against a single target, or just fire one against target A, then another against target B, then another against target A, and then B, and then C, and so…), and see at the end of the day…16 x 2 = 32 missiles x 3 seconds is 96 seconds of fire cycles for maximum pK, in those 96 seconds a 330 m/sec “incoming AShM attack” using multiple azimuth could travel = 330 m/sec x 96 sex = 31.680 meters…that’s a lot and pretty much maximum range on any SAM against HRE limited targets…

Are those subsonic missile so hard to catch to use two SAM against each?, should I be tempted to use just one, and trust MBDA and the marketing ;)?, or would I see if my FOST years were any good and express my gratitude to the High Command for don’t give me EA systems and risk my luck to soft kill issues (chaff, maneuvering, rubber ducks, helo seduction and the lot) for making more pK of missiles down?

What happen if those simultaneous missiles are not 330 m/sec targets, but 700 m/sec targets flying at 10 meters?

Off course, this is academic, I’m falling asleep, and don’t know the RoF of the Sylver cells, neither a good time the missile takes since expulsion from the cell to start interception trajectory (let’s call it “latency time”) and the such…

Go ahead buddy, destroy my arguments, bored week, would like to learn something this weekend 😉

Shot the archer, nor the arrow…

RSM55…

Norway’s P-3 Orion were dropping sonobouys along the PIM of the Russian Navy’s TG…why?, are they searching for a submarine?, is a submarine part of the deployment?

You commented an special GRU boat (X-Ray maybe?) was part of the deployment…or maybe is just an Akula?

Do you have more info on this?? or your own opinion.

[QUOTE=Austin;1304524]Yeah but its getting old and there are soft/hard countermeasures developed against wake homers.QUOTE]

Wich ones?

Other news: Peter the Great and Admiral Chabanenko have set sail for a 15 days long exercice and eventual visit to Venezuela. Unconfirmed reports suggest the participation of at least one SSN.

Would it go down here??…I haven’t heard anything on it…

How much are they considered combat ready units?

What deployments have they made during the last two years?

Thanks!

Interesting thing is that, during the first flight around the Caribbean Sea, Blackjacks flew most of the time at FL30-33, but in the second flight around Western South-american coastline, they flew at FL70!.

This information according to somebody that could see them on a radar screen at an ATC center at Maiquetia (Caracas):D

You don’t see this image every day I guess:

Courtesy of HURACAN from a columbian forum (he’s venezuelan)