h177Originally posted by user
I dont know why Pakistani’s are so worried about the Indian Airforce.
In every single war, in every single encounter with a foreign airforce the Pakistan Airforce has mauled them, Have no doubt about it the Soviets, the Israelis, the Afghans, the Indians have all been severly mauled by the Pakistan airforce. On average the Kill ratio of Pakistani to Indian planes is 2:1,
for those Indians that dont speak english this means that for every one Pakistani aircraft that was shot down 2 Indian Planes were shot down.As for the encounters with the Israelis, well all i can say is that the Indian airforce put up more of a fight than they did the Kill ratio there is 4 Israeli Planes to 0, yes 0 Pakistani planes.
The soviets and afghans are not worth mentioning, they too were chewed by the Pakistan airforce
THe only thing that Pakistanis have to worry is modernizing thier feel and take care of thier army, its outnumbered 2:1.
Who told you that Pak is that much worried about India. We already know they cannot moblize. Last time they tried to moblize 1000 of their own soldiers and 300 of their own trucks were burned down. This form is only for discussion regarding Military aviation technology not about war tactics.
h177Also don’t forget US can print as much dollars as it wants because all world commodities are priced and payed in dollars if it ever changes to EURO than every thing will go upside down.
h177Originally posted by glitter
You make me think “Does countries with very cheap manpower but with so high tech skills (India or China) could make basic carriers for other countries ?”.Let’s say the size of the old french carriers and with “cheap” planes like mig-29K or LCA.
You put Naval LCA cheap plane. Only time will tell how much it will cost if it is ever produced.
h177http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/missiles/asm.html
Check this website H-2 is raptor 1 and H-4 may be MUSPOW because only MUSPOW version TARGOS has IIR seeker which is mentioned with H-4 in the news report and definitely not AAMS.
h177Originally posted by Victor
Building the LCA and building the Migs and Jags is a completely different ball game.The LCA program forced the Indian aero industry to mature faster, not as fast as it was hoped but faster than if there was no LCA program. The LCA program will come to fruition. There’s no way around it because the IAF can’t afford to buy 200+ frontline a/c from someone else.
Think about it this way. The name of the game in selling fighters is offsets. Think of the advancement of the Indian aero industry through the entire spectrum of low-med-high tech as the offset to buying the LCA. That is something no other aircraft, company, or country can match.
I doubt BAe would transfer tech on EVERYTHING in the Gripen. But with the LCA, Indian companies get the tech transfer on every piece of equipment along with export rights. 🙂 That’s a the best offset.
Your Idea is good one and Swedes are putting more powerful engines and AESA radar in future Gripens and if they can built some Navalized version of SAAB ERIEYE than its a very good package. But the big question is who is going to sit with India for negotiations by the time India finalizes its CUSTOMIZED version of Gripen the Gripen team will be already in graveyard not to mention the SIGNING after the finalization. Remember how much time it took for their HAWK and GORSHKOV and SU-30
h177Originally posted by Arthur
Didn’t know the Merlin was that expensive… but then again, you can always order some, cancel them, order some more, cancel them again, and then finally order a few for SAR and forgetting to cancel them 🙂
And the Manufacturer will simply walk away if it is not State owned.
h177Originally posted by troung
A little speculation if you please…The Raptor I was called the H-2 in SAAF service. I would lean to the H-4 if it’s real being the Raptor II. The ranges of the H-2 and the Raptor I are the same and the H-4 and Raptor II are the same. So it should not be to hard to figure out what they are if in fact the orgin is from South Africa.
The Raptor I has a 37 mile range, uses TV guidance and has a 3 meter CEP. The Raptor II has a 74 mile range using it’s rocket booster, with a GPS assited INS guidance. Both wiegh in at about 2100lbs which would make the only two PAF fighters able to hold them be the F-16A/B and Mirage III/5. So if this is true and I’m on the mark the strike ability of the PAF is now much greater then it used to be.
No flames!!!!!!!!
Your speculation seems correct i also read somewhere 1000 kg weight and rocket motor for H-4 so these are ground attack weopons.
h177SOUTH AFRICA
Denel
Kukri V-3B IR 0.3-4 2.5 73 294/13/53
Kentron
Darter V-3C IR 0.3-10 2 89 275/16/66 Uses “twist-and-turn”
control, with one set of fixed forward fins and offset 90 deg to them
tandem control surfaces like Magic, which it is otherwise similar too.
Turns up to 35G.
U-Darter IR 0.3-10? 2? 89? 275/16/66 Like Darter, but with
cruciform tandem control surfaces. Turns at 55G, off boresight
capability up to 56 deg. In service (1997)
A-Darter IIR
Reported to have a peak manoeuvrability of 100G.
The A-Darter uses both tail control and thrust vectoring. Full scale development has not begun (1997). Guided flight tests to start (1999).
V4 R-Darter AR Entered service
around 1995, has at least two launch modes with lock on before
or after launch. Probably shares some technology with Derby.
S-Darter/LRAAM ramjet powered, in development
T-Darter AR /50+ Air breathing, mid-course datalink.
Probably an SAHV-3 development.
Offered to Pakistan (1999)..
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text…ssiles/aam.html
h177Originally posted by SOC
The PAK-FA and XXJ/J-12 are fifth generation along the lines of the F/A-22 and JSF. The Su-30MKI and Su-35 are four-plus generation aircraft. J-10 is a solid fourth generation design. Rafale and Eurofighter are closer to four-plus at the present time than fifth generation.
Thales have put in website RAFALE as fourth generation plane. I will put F-16Blk 60 with AESA radar as 4+ generation which can detect 1 sq metre target at three times the range of ordinary F-16. Any aircraft without Stealth, SuperCruise and AESA is not beyond 4 th generation aircraft.
h177I still think that these are PGMS not BVR missle because Mirage is only used for this purpose.
h177Pakistan Tests H-4 Air To Air BVR Missiles
April 22nd, 2003: Pakistan successfully test-fired an indigenously manufactured, air to air, anti-aircraft missile on Monday.
According to the credible sources, the missile, fired from a Mirage fighter jet, successfully targeted a flying object. This H-4 missile is made by a subsidiary organization of NESCOM and it is the most advanced version of H missiles.
According to the sources the missile was fired on its target from a Mirage plane over the Arabian Sea. One of the salient feature of the H-4 missile is that it can hit even the out of sight target. The successful experiment of the air to air missile will go a long way in countering the enemy’s air supremacy.
h177Originally posted by Magician
>>The French are known for their double dealing. The advantage for them is higher price and more offset. The French are the last party that can provide total systems cause most companies in Europe are either connected to US or UK. That means that they are a politcial instrument. The french are only intrested in cash. At time that Pakistan was boycotted only the mirages flew… The thing that PAF remembered was that even the plastic fuel tanks were more expensive then their price in goldweight. That is one of the problems why PAF is not desperate to go for Mirage 2000-5. India is more open to that. Whe else would they fly so many nice planes? Good for India and us plane enthousiats.When will you understand that beggars can’t be choosers, asking for high tech fighters has become a full time job for Mushy,Jamali.
Whichever country they go to they beg for maintaining conventional balance with India. The whole of PAF would be ready to give a bj to Chirac the day he allows the sale of M2K5 to Pakistan.>>But do end making India better in everything and Pakistan bad in everything. The truth is allways in between. Both nations are not far from eachother. India has more cash and ends up with luxarious weapons while the Pakistani has to wait for better times. Since better weapons get more expensive it means that they just think a bit more before ending up with high tech planes that have no spare parts. And the Pakistani have awful lot to improve. They just started with the Navy getting better subs. Then they will get ships. They are developing tanks now and hopeful will have a new plane. If not then they just have to do it with the fc1 or j10 which are not that bad either.
Again with this equal-equal crap. A country on brink of an economic collapse kept afloat on US AID,rescheduling of loans for which you have become their B**** in south asia.
You have been thinking since the 1990s and it is nearly 2004 now how much more time do you need? Tell me will you not accept a F-16 if it was offered to you now, so much for the spare parts argument. The sub contract was signed in ther early 90s, no new contract has been signed since then, on the other hand India has been expanding its navy at a fast pace for eg. P-15,P-15A,P-16,P-17,Kilo upgrades,Krivaks,Gorshkov,Scorpenes, ADS,Klub,Uran,Bhramos etc
You bring irrelevant things so here is a bit of reality. Surely Pakistan doesnot want to be equal with such a disease ridden country full of deficits and only talks of defence deals rather than operational weopons.
Fastest Growing Disease
The UN AIDS report of December, 1998, states that 5.8 million new cases of HIV infection occurred that year, at the rate of 11 people per minute. Since 1997, the number of people living with the virus had risen by 10%, to 33.4 million worldwide. India holds the record for the country with the largest HIV infected population, with an estimated 4 million HIV positive people. In the worst affected state, Tamil Nadu (population, 25 million), a new survey revealed that half a million are infected with HIV and that the infection rate is three times higher in villages than in cities
Highest Prevalence Of Leprosy
The World Health Organisation Epidemiological Record listed India as having 577,200 people as registered suffers of leprosy at the start of 1999. By July 1999, that figure had increased by a further 634,901 sufferers.
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com
The whole Indian central government is running on borrowed money $38B for central government alone and add over the top of state budgets it come around $55B of borrowing almost 11% of GDP. IF Pak government borrow even $5B for infrastructure projects per year the GDP will be flying at more than 15% per year.
India may learn to live with its deficit
By Arun Bhattacharjee
NEW DELHI – As the process begins for putting together next year’s crucial budget – one that many believe will make a radical departure from the past – and the bells for an early general election in India toll, the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government is desperately trying to find a new formula to deal with its high budget deficit, and at the same time pull the reigns on foreign institutional investment (FII).
The government is ignoring expert advice and has decided that the country’s economy can face a budget deficit of 15-20 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), as the investment climate has never been better, the capital market has broken all records through sustained growth for the past six months, and Indian companies are performing far better abroad than on their home turf. A Finance Ministry source indicates that the budget deficit may be as high as US$38.4 billion when Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s plans for infrastructure support take shape.
India is both worried as well as euphoric by the floods of continued FII investment at a daily average of $65.08 million. The government justifies its plan for an investment cap on FIIs as a precaution against a repeat of what led to the economic downturn in Southeast Asia in 1997. The Reserve Bank of India, the country’s central bank, advised the Finance Ministry not to raise the ceiling of FIIs beyond $1 billion, against a demand to raise it to $9 billion. Banking sources reveal that FII investment has already crossed $1 billion – or 20 percent of the portfolio investment of $5 billion this year.
Apparently, the government intends to avoid any international financial scandal to rock the investment boat while holding the key to close the tap in case of a reverse flow of capital or a run on the capital market. In addition, both the Reserve Bank of India and the Ministry of Finance are making it clear that corporate accountability and audits have to be strictly followed.
Despite a fast-growing investment climate, India is refusing the capital market and full convertibility of the rupee for the same reason, and insisting on limiting external commercial borrowings by Indian companies to $4.5 billion. This almost equals the FII investment in the country, although government economists say that the analogy is unrelated. Many Indian companies are taking advantage of the delay to impose a cap on external borrowing and raising capital abroad as fast as they can. The Bangalore-based Sterlite group, for instance, has already raised $1 billion and is planning to raise another $2 billion from the overseas market.
The decision to provide nearly $6.6 billion in annual budget support to poorly developed areas for building expressways and other infrastructure will bolster the states’ budgets, but land the central government with a huge deficit to the tune of $38.4 billion, which the central government will have to raise or borrow to touch the highest India has ever invested in roads and other infrastructure.
Yojona Bhawan, the headquarters of the country’s Planning Commission, is cautious in its comments when it says that bigger economies have proved that there is no need to stick to the World Bank’s formula that deficits should not exceed more than 5-6 percent of GDP when all the parameters of the economy are well. It admits that to provide $6.6 billion in support to the four underdeveloped areas identified in the northeast of the country and Jammu and Kashmir (J&K), the actual central deficit is likely to be more, and the budget support required will be around $38.4 billion. Most of the funds will be spent on the troubled states of J&K and Nagaland, which have a long history of insurgency and which are still unstable. The state of Sikkim, bordering China, will receive $96.5 million, while Nagaland will get around $230 million, with the largest chunk of $3.83 billion going to four development packages for J&K.
While the opposition parties see a grand political design in this huge spending plan, a political adviser to the prime minister denies this as the areas have remained neglected for ages and, barring Sikkim, both Nagaland in the northeast and J&K have bred insurgencies for decades because of poor development. This will also remove the general feeling of alienation among these people from mainstream India.
h177Originally posted by Vympel
There is no such thing as MiG-29K2.It’s MiG-29K, and it’s index is 9.41. The MiG-29KUB is 9.47. And no, I don’t mean the original MiG-29K that lost to the Su-33- it’s index was 9.31.
As for indigenous carriers, by the time they’re around Rafale-Ms will be pedestrian.
As for indigenous carriers, by the time they’re around Rafale-Ms will be pedestrian.
Very accurate observation.
h177In the same magazin it is written that untill now PAK-FA deal has not been SIGNED and India has not provided any funds untill now. In India case untill the word SIGN is not there don’t buy the news even if it is from the horse mouth.
h177Originally posted by Indian1973
didnt PN set out to buy 4 F22s in the late 90s but they were furious at the poor build quality and weapons and came back ?these arent the new 054 FFG class, the F22 has been around for about a decade now hasnt it ?
Cant afford the neat 054 eh ? 😀
It depends on threat perception. China threat is US navy and Pak threat is India navy and for which O53 are enough.
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