Originally posted by SabreAce
Actually it did come up twice in your pakdef forums as well as paknews forum where the F-22 was reportedly being tested over the Karakorum ranges! 😀

And have’nt we all heard of the Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, F-16-block-60 and what not, the PAF is getting, not to mention Tomahawk missiles and F-7s which supposedly “escaped” live sparrow firings? 😀

In defense forums every kind of things will come up. Only put things which can be backed up by reliable and independent evidence.

Originally posted by sharmaji
There is no reason why this should be a flame war thread, simply post news and articles about the PAF in here, the Indian and Chinese threads are working quite well sostop complaining.

You made a remark about F-22. Now you provide any evidence in any news media where F-22 is mentioned for Pakistan. Pakistan is only looking at F-16MLU and M2K untill this point now and that only after FC-1 manufacturing is fully established so further fighters manufacture and their upgradation can be locally done.

ISLAMABAD: Opening a new chapter of indigenisation and self-reliance in defence systems, Pakistan Air Force has indigenously overhauled surface-to-air anti-aircraft Crotale missiles and upgraded its range.

The roll-out ceremony of this indigenously overhauled Crotale missiles was held on Thursday at the PAF Base, Chaklala. Air Chief Marshal Pervaiz Mehdi Qureshi, Chief of the Air Staff, was the chief guest on the occasion.

Terming it a landmark, official sources said the PAF has indigenously enhanced the Crotale missile original range of 20 kilometres to 30 kilometres. “The existing Crotale 2000 have been upgraded to Crotale 4000,” said an official source.

“The overhauling of Crotale weapon system in the country holds out great promise, and will go a long way in enhancing our indigenous engineering skills,” said Chief of Air Staff ACM Qureshi while speaking at the ceremony. “The present government has accorded high priority to self-reliance and indigenisation so as to stand on our feet in all the critical fields.”

He said the Crotale overhaul programme is a major step in the direction of achieving self-reliance and indigenisation of weapon systems. In particular, the air chief thanked Mr Massel, the Managing Director of Thompson-CSF Air Systems, for sparing his valuable time and coming all the way from France to attend this ceremony.

In the normal course, had the overhaul of Crotale missiles been done in France, the cost could have touched $ 23 million. “But we have done it less then half of this amount,” said a senior official.

Crotale missile system was inducted in the PAF in 1976 to ameliorate the short range air defence. Pakistan Air Force possesses sufficient number of missiles, the source said. With the upgradation of these missiles the enemy aircraft cannot dare to enter Pakistani territory, he added. The system has provided useful service to the PAF for more than two decades and has proved to be an effective deterrence against attacks on vital installations.

LY-60 Surface-to-Air Missile
In October 1994 China revealed its new medium-low-altitude surface-to-air missile system, the LY-60 (Lie Ying = Falcon). The LY-60 was derived from Italian ‘Aspide’ missile, which itself was derived from U.S. AIM-7E ‘Sparrow’. Along with the LY-60 a medium-range air-to-air version has also been developed under the designation PL-10. The application of the same missile to both air-to-air and ship-to-air applications emulates the American’s practice with the ‘Sparrow’, which started life as an air-to-air missile with subsequent shipboard deployments.
The LY-60 missile has both land- and ship-based versions. The system is mainly intended for the interception of aircraft and missiles flying in medium-low-altitude. The missile is guided by the command control system with artificial interference capability. It is the only medium-low-altitude air defence missile in the world that uses microprocessor intelligent module technology. The LY-60’s search radar (I/J-band) can simultaneously track up to 40 targets, and the tracking radar is able to simultaneously track 12 targets, and engage three targets at once. The use of the moving target tracking processing system and frequency agility technology also gives the system good anti-jamming capability.

The ship-based naval version of the LY-60 has already been tested on a Jiangwei-I class frigate. Compared with the HQ-61 SAM currently used by the Jiangwei-I class, the LY-60 has a greater range and better performance. It is assumed that the LY-60 naval version might have foldable wings so that it can be launched from the vertical launcher system (VLS), which is currently under development for the new generation surface combatants.

In comparison, the land-based version of the LY-60 features a 4-cell launcher, each cell containing one missile, and the missile’s wing is not foldable

Originally posted by Magician
>>Both nations have reached medium quality production and will enter the higher end products in next decade or so.

Please stop with this equl-equal crap again, you have no industries, US used you as their H***,and like a Co****
you were always in the frontline of the action!!
and yeah this stuff you wrote is all about aviation

And what about the Brits using Indians as donkeys in British RaJ. I think you have forget it and the three Afghan expeditions from 1843 to 1892 where the cannon fodder was guess whom not to mention use in world wars. Pakistan has 50 years history but India has over 1000 years of this kind of history.

Originally posted by PhantomII
Srbin would you care to explain to me why the Pakistani Air Force is even in that list.

It doesn’t compare with any of the other nations on that list…..so why even put it on this thread.

We’re talking top of the line air arms here…and well, that is something the PAF just isn’t.

Why it should not be in the list. It can defeat Irak and Taliban just like the USAF with far less money.

Originally posted by Srbin
There will be 200 LCA to replace all teh Mig-21s

They havent decided exactly to cut it down to 130 Typhoons but it remains 232 for now. They also said they wanted 150 F-35s, they havent cut that down yet

Well thats what it stated 260 MKIs, same with F-22.

That Su-30MKI number is around 190 if they can built, 200 LCA is not going to happen most probably will be dropped in favor of M2K in future. In 2020 add J-12 type thing to PAF because according to Richard Fisher it will be introduced with in 6 years of F-22.

Originally posted by Magician
[B]Hmm you forget about the mki’s,T-90s,phalcon awacs,krivak frigates,wlrs,jaguar&harrier,upg upgrades,air refullers,smerch,kamov ka31 helicopters,club,uran,BHRAMOS,Air Defence Ship,ALH,Krasnopol-M 155 mm laser-guided artillery ,insas,Arjuns,S-300,IAI Malat built Searcher Mk II/Heron Aerial Vehicles,Tunguska M-1 mobile gun,Barak,HJT-36,R-77……..

then compare this with what Pakistan has purchased, and village idiot just wait till next month Gorshkov deal will be completed then. Gorshy is part of a package deal which consists of the AC,
2 squadron worth Mig-29SMTK,Akula-2 subs, Tu-22M3. Scorpene deal is also likely to be signed by next month.

You see testing of equipment takes time, it has to conducted in all weather conditions and at different terrains,also mod does some hard bargaing before signing any deal.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1031208/asp/nation/story_2651962.asp
The Indian Navy is evaluating three air defence (missile) systems for the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, talks for which are on track despite differences with the Russians, defence ministry officials insist.

The navy is evaluating a Russian (Kashtan), a French (Aster) and an Israeli (Barak) missile system. These are intended to reduce the chances of the ship being hit by aircraft on suicide missions. The Russians are pressing for the Kashtan system. The missile system is part of the air defence umbrella, the largest component of which would be ship-based aircraft that would be capable of giving a 200-mile cover.

The Russians were understood to have questioned the choice of third-party missile launchers and their compatibility with the Gorshkov’s own systems.Defence ministry sources say the issue of a missile defence system would not hold up an agreement on the Gorshkov . They said efforts were being made to iron out differences ahead of the Russian defence minister’s visit to Delhi likely by the end of the month.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=47958
Deal For Scorpene Submarines Likely To Be Inked Soon

Under the contract, India will build these submarines at the Mazgaon docks in Goa. Mr Girard said France is keen for “long-term cooperation, joint production and research for building futuristic armament systems with India.” This had received a fillip after the visit of the French prime minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin earlier this year.

According to naval analyst Cmde Ranjit Rai, ‘‘the Franco-Spanish Scorpene submarines under Project 75 are more advanced than the HDW boats as they will be fitted with module energiesous-marin autonome system to enable underwater operation for days without surfacing.”

After this deal is signed, the French company has offered ten more diesel submarines to the Navy by 2010, upgraded by HDW for greater endurance. According to highly placed sources, ‘Scorpenes’ alone cannot meet the country’s strategic requirements without a three-fold increase in endurance time to at least 200 hrs.

It needs modifications for nuclear capability, which France and Germany are jointly willing to undertake, sources add.

One of the reasons why the deal had been delayed

Show me SIGN deals not Intents.
Pakistan comparison.
M-9, M-11, M-15 Billistic missles and their Indegenous modifications, T-80UD, AL-KHALID TANK, ZARAR upgrade, AGUSTA 90B, APC SAAD, C-8XX missles,F-7PG, WS-1B MLRS, MISTRAL, CROTALE Upgrade and rebuilding, upgrades like ROSE upgrade to MIRAGE and MP to F-7 i cannot remember each and every thing.

Originally posted by Shkval1
Amazing, just amazing stuff we have here! It was the most exciting collection of BS I ever read, troung, you are excellent example of “ignorance is bliss” proverb.

First of all, you have gone from your wards far away, but I could remind you, if you forgot something:

You might notice how Russia lost Afganistan and will lose Chechnia.

And how, how Russia lost Afganistan (Russia in Afganistan is another miracle from you, but it’s not the point)?
Could you describe the facts? What tasks do USSR failed, how much forces do they destroyed? And other, other…

No that they have not paid attention to how technology has left them behind.

Yes, try to enlight us – how’s the technology left us behind?
Ever tried to read when GBs such as KAB-Xl or KAB-Xtr entered service? Or what tech do you need?

I’m sorry dropping dumb bombs on a city is a low tech way to try and handle a guerilla threat and it is not effective in the least bit at stopping a guerilla army. All that does is add to recuitment and of course make the nation doing the bombing look real bad. Dropping dumb bombs in a city does not kill the guerillas just the opposite it adds to the guerilla problem.

Excellent!
And what cities were “dumb bombed” to the ground?
Ever tried to read about Strategic and Tactical aviation in Afganistan?
Do you know tasks and outputs of Federal aviaition in Chechnya?
Or all you know is “evil Russians bombed everything to the ground” while “glory Americans win hands down with their shining guided bombs”?

At least PGMs can strike a target such as a TV station or bridge where yes people will get mad but not as mad as wiping villages of the face of the Earth becuase you cannot hit anything in any weather other then a bright sunny day. Also it is a lot more effective to use a JDAM to support ground troops then trying at it with dumb bombs and hoping to hit the rebels and avoid hitting your own troops. Maybe Russia does not care about killing it’s own troops as long as they can bomb a village full of women and childern in responce.

Oh, what a problem – for example, in Chechnya in December there were in average only 2 (read the lips – two) bright sunny days, while aviation should control aerospace, did strike missions,and do all other stuff. It’s a miracle, troung, I tell you – it’s a miracle!
Another one miracle is direct support with JDAMS and other stuff against highly manoeuvrable targets, tell the Americans – they should really hire you as military adviser – hell, you can be rich after all.
And you know here we come to another miracle – the TV station and bridges were destroyed by laser-guided bombs like KAB-1500L (from Su-24M), guided rockets and other guided munitions. It seems that it was Americans flying over Chechnya, oh no!

And the last one -it’s a pity that Dudaev himself didn’t here you – he was been dispatched with guided rocket, what a pity he couldn’t answer!

Oh yeah and Russian equipment was in the Desert Storm and it failed miserbly the same way it failed in Serbia.

Ah, you mean that amazing 60’th-era airdefence and the country that was almost killed by sanctions. As was mentioned the Serbs didn’t … hell if you can’t remember this try to learn by heart, if this will not help, go to local doctor – I’m sure you could find one.

Bad comparison. The North Vietnamese had a real military unlike the Afgans. There was a North Vietnamese navy, air force and army. The Afgans were religous students from muslim nations with much less training and equipment.

Why don’t you compare the numbers of Soviet contingent in Afganistan, and American in Vietnam. tell us also about much less training in Pakistan camps!

Compare the preformance of the Russian air force in delibartly targeting civilains and then compare that to the USAF/USN with it’s all weather ability. Note that America has beaten Afganistan and air power played a huge role. And American air power in Afganistan is a lot better then what the Russians did. And before you comment that it was years later remember that Russia has only gotten weaker since then.

Quoting GarryB:
“Bsh!t. The Soviets held more towns and cities than the US does at the moment. American airpower would have been useless if they hadn’t had the Northern Alliance on the ground. The NA forces moved into an area… the taleban could either mass up into a force to defend or it could retreat. If it massed up then it was bombed with airpower. If it retreated then the NA moved forward and gained more land and recruits. Without the NA there would be no reason for the Taleban to mass and therefore there would be no targets for the b52s. The Airpower would be useless.”

It’s absolute true.
I have a friend of mine, specialist in Afganistan matters, that recently was here – the only thing Americans control are they own bases, they have no intensive losses only because the most of them sit on they own a$$, doing nothing with extremists, doing nothing with heroin plantations.

A good deal of helicopters have gone down taking the crews and passengers with them.

I think you refer to single Mi-26 that was fly against restricted rules…

And about that fascinating “Black HawkS down” soap opera that we saw in Iraq?

Screw it I’m just too lazy to respond to the rest of your pro Russia crap. Keep living in a fantasy that Russia is military power and not a pathetic shell of a nation.

Ah, well here is the answer – you’re not lazy, you’re just an…not-so-clever person.

Now something about Afghan war. The present day Northen Alliance is not composed of former Soviet backed communist government. The key leaders Prof Rabbani, Prof Sayyaf and Hamid Karzai were all American and Saudi backed since 1970s only Dostum is an exception. The key difference is that all Educated Afghans backed the Soviets and all illiterate islamists were backed by Americans and still Soviet lost. The main reason is the use of Hard currency like dollar to buy loyalties which Soviet Union did not have at that time.But still Soviets and Afghans airforce lost thousands of aircrafts to MANPADS and those were mostly to unsophisticated Blow Pipes and SA-7 derivatives.(Stinger were introduced in late 1986). For super power it is pretty pathetic performance.