It goes back to what others have been saying. A combat pilot does not train like a test pilot. That’s what they call them “test” pilots. That’s self-evident. For some reason that doesn’t seem to be sinking in with you though it’s obvious to everyone else apparently.

The training is utterly irrelevant [as regards pre-planned manouvering], no-one except me seems to be grasping this.

Neither test nor combat pilot will be performing untried manouvres during an airshow. Both test and combat pilot will have taken the aircraft up to and beyond its limits [the test pilot in a methodical study of the aircraft flight envelope, the combat pilot in the learning of the type].

The differentiation between test pilot and combat pilot is quite straightforward, simply put – the test pilot does it all first, and writes the book on flying the aircraft, how to get out of spins A, B & C. The combat pilot comes along and reads that book (along with the one on using the systems) and takes the aircraft into a fight using the knowledge of the book written by the test pilot.

Both use the maximum flight envelope and whatever more they can get away with, but the test pilot has covered everything and is the guide for the combat pilot.

You know either you’re really good or the opposition is really sh!tty when you fight at a 3 to 1 disadvantage with your hands tied behind your back yet they still feel it’s worth bragging about a win. :rolleyes:

Now, no point blaming the Indians, it was you made the analogy – so are front-line USAF pilots akin to 2 year olds with crayons or not?

Not necc. the test pilot defines what is ok and what is not , do you think that regular combat pilots perform cobras , hooks , kilbits routinly then you are mistaken , and people like METZ have done a lot of testing beyond the envelope , i wonder if the syllabus for combat pilots involvs Departing routinly at 40K feet , spin recovery etc etc , if you think that combat pilots can do the same as Show pilots (test pilots ) in areas specific to AIRSHOW performance then you are very wrong my friend , i would love to see what a normal combat raptor pilot does when compared to Metz who has many many many more hours and expereince on the raptor then him , he basically help define the book that these pilots read . There is a reason why a test pilot for the big houses isnt a representative of the normal combat pilot in the USAF but somebody that is the best of the best even out of the elite few . Paul has been involved with the raptor from the get go and definately knows more about how the aircraft handles then anyone else.

A regular pilot will perform what he needs to perform to win a fight, while it might not involve the specific moves, it will involve taking the aircraft to its limits. Besides, the F-22 has carefree handling, throughout the flight envelope, so in a manner of speaking departure from controlled flight is impossible 😉

sure he will , but then Metz who is on Payroll not because he is expected to kill migs in war but to demonstrate the capabilities of the raptor , he has defined how the raptor handles and perfroms and has the most experience taking the raptor to places where combat pilots arent even allowed to take the raptor to.

Paul Metz demonstrates/evaluates the capabilities, the line pilots use them, there is not as much difference in using the machine as you think.

the thing is that the F-22 performs what it performs with a load that is 8 missiles and massive ammount of fuel , or even 2 1000 lb bombs and it doesnt matter interms of aerodynamic performance which cannot be said for the OVT or any other legacy jet.

Its T/W ratio will be affected, so I doubt it will perform exactly the same – however, aerodynamic performance will be unimpaired.

then why go through so much selecting a test pilot or even trying to improve the quality of a pilot ?? The reason why Paul metz was test pilot of the raptor was because he was considered to be the best amongst the best in the country not a representative of the average combat pilot . Can you take a ANG pilot and expect him to perform similar to DOZER or METZ??

I already covered this earlier when I mentioned:

“A test pilot is trained to identify and rectify problems quicker, but a (well-trained) standard pilot will be able to chuck an aircraft around just as well, although he may be missing subtle differences in the aircraft’s behaviour, and may not be able to isolate the reasons for the handling.”

I think you are overestimating the difference that a “test” pilot will make over an “average” military pilot.

A test pilot is trained to identify and rectify problems quicker, but a (well-trained) standard pilot will be able to chuck an aircraft around just as well, although he may be missing subtle differences in the aircraft’s behaviour, and may not be able to isolate the reasons for the handling.

Of more influence will be the pilot’s instructions, he may be under specific orders to keep the risk level low etc etc etc or even not show facets of the aircraft’s performance.

I’m sure the displays will get better over time, but I’m still certain the F-22 will never have the agility of the MiG-29 OVT – but as I said earlier, close enough is good enough.

It’s very impressive. The most manouverable aircraft in the US inventory.

I still feel it falls short of the OVT in manouverability, but thats not important as the other advantages it (the F-22) has are more decisive.

That’s true, but the fact is we don’t know at what stage of aerodynamic development the latest generation Russian fighter is located at. But we do know two facts:
A. the prototype has yet to fly,
B. even when the first prototype has flown, it still takes a good 8 to 10 years to actually get it into operational service.

We already have enough examples of this in the development of 4.5/5th fighters around the world to prove this point.

2015 is the earliest we will see the first operational PAK-FA/I-21 or whatever it’s going to be called.

To be fair, alot of the 8-10 year delay from prototype->operation is forced on the engineers from interferring politicans etc.

In the past the Russian’s have tended to let the engineers get on with it and get the thing built. Besides, I reckon the PAK-FA will have been built with a strong degree of multi-role in mind from the beginning and won’t require the time-consuming ‘after-thought’ incorporation of systems.

If the F-22 had remained a pure A2A fighter, then if necessary, it could have been ready by the mid-90s I reckon. The F-22/EF and Rafale all suffered from budget/capability changes to one degree or another, that more than anything prolonged the introduction into service.

So if you’re still “blowing” the airframe shape in the wind tunnel, when can you seriously expect the first flight of the first prototype and when can you then expect the date for entry into service?
How long was it after wind tunnel testing did we get to see the first flight of the F-22 or for that matter the Euro-canards?

I’d be very surprised if we Russia’s 5th generation fighter enters service before the year 2015.

Once again; General Mikhailov shows use his wonderful grasp of reality!

Well… they were continually developing the F-22 in the windtunnel after the YF-22 was flying.

Even after the prototype has been signed off for production, development will continue. If anything worthwhile is discovered, it can be incorporated into the production variants.