SD-10So what? They may not be F15E’s but they are still potent.
The core issues I refer to are the PLAAF’s huge obscolescent fleet which they are removing and supplanting. Then the issue of AD n/w modernisation.
Along with this the emphasis on local avaition industry..all these soak up funds.
By my logic- AWACS allows PLAAF a breather. They can get by with less – holds true for everyone.
What is your point?. If they become F-15E it will add strike ability.
And i don’t think PLAAF is facing any shortage of new aircraft. Every year
40 or 50 Flankers (J-11+Su-30) and 40 or 50 J-10. It is around 100 4th
generation planes. And i think no body is adding this kind of capability every
year except US. I am not counting JH-7 type aircraft. i think in PPP terms
China defence should second largest which is enough resources for local
production at this rate.
SD-10And why should one assume that the PLAAF would have upgraded the birds? ALl these days they would have been enough, even now they are relevant systems.
Obscolescence is a relative term.
With AWACS and effective GCI support, the avionics on the birds dont play as critical a factor as they could be in a force which lacks the same.
Given the depth of the modernisation necessary for the PLAAF, it makes ample sense that they would be concentrating on the core issues rather than goldplating their Su’s with continuous upgrades.
The radars in them along with cockpits are very primitive by today standards.
(20 year old tech) They cannot even be considered Glass cockpits. One
cannot train pilots on top line planes like this for ever. what core issues you
are referring to?/ By your logice AWACS will do every thing no need to
upgrade any thing.
Flanker is the front line fighter. Advance self protection
suite, Glass cockpit and Radar should be top priority.
SD-10Huh? WHats that mean? Could you rephrase the question?
I mean Avionics are now days obsolete every 5 years. And these,-SK Aircraft
are now appraching 10 year life. Also original batch J-11 are approacching
5 years life with out any evidence of upgrade from Russia.
SD-10Because I know the amount of effort it takes and becuase I also know that sometimes economics wont justify the decision, given the effort involved. Return on investment after all.
And lastly, I can wager as to how the Russians work in this respect- trust me they give no quarter.
And they can go to extreme lengths to protect their investment.
The J11 being 100 indigenous- laudable but wont be true imho. I am not trying to flame here- just offering my honest perspective.
Most of the critical avionics components etc will remain Russian.
What the Russians normally do is that they set up a representative office in the fld of question. This guy or guys are the ones who implement upgrades, program avionics etc. They also make sure somethings are not trifled around with. Apart from all these will be the umpteen contractual provisions that specify that China will have to purchase x from y plant at certain baseline prices and so on and so forth. Thats how the system works…
Russia would not like it for eg if China tries to put its own radars into the a/c and will safeguard against such issues contractually.
Now China can still go ahead and try to rev eng but they will not be able to apply the same blatantly in their owbn lic produced J11’s, they will probably use them as spin off’s elsewhere.
So if you know so much did PLAAF upgrades Su-27SK with Russia?
SD-10Can you say the above with 100% confidence? I think not.
They can supply jigs but unless they supply design data China will have to attempt to reverse engineer, which will be a hard task.
There are many ways to protect IPRs in avionics and structural units and the Russians are past masters at the game- ask India. Apart from these, the russians can also use contractual agreements to make sure China does not rev engineer certain components. Its all part of the technology game.
How can you be sure 100% that China can not do it after so many years
of licensing? Sukhoi official themselves told Richard fischer that by end of
decade J-11 will 100% indigenous.
SD-10This is provided Russia lets them. Once burnt twice shy.
After the MiG21 story I bet the Russians are working overtime to protect their IPR’s anyhow, somehow.
How they are protecting it? The engine is the only critical thing left.
SD-10I think those F-15C uses the old 23000LBS thurst engine instead of new 29000LBS
that will explain the other differrence.
SD-10@ SD-10
Yes, I am totally sure they were AESAed. There was a large conversation about it some month ago..
@miesten
That is not my server anymore, unfortunately, I have no access to it from Germany..
***lbil at kreativ.sk*** is the mail address of the Admin, try to contact him to get more info
They are not AESA according this news posted by Alex
IAF SU-30 bested US F-15s in a majority of their engagements
——————————————————————————–
Thursday, 24 June , 2004, 08:13
Washington: The US Air Force got a “wake-up call” in air-to-air training exercises with India earlier this year that showed the United States can no longer take air superiority for granted in a conflict, a top US general has said.
A study of the “Cope India” air exercise, conducted by the US and Indian air forces in Gwalior last February, is secret, said General Hal Hornburg, head of the US Air Forces Air Combat Command.
“But we have to learn a lot of things from that,” he told defence reporters here. “We have to learn if we want air superiority it doesn’t come cheap and its not automatic.”
The Russian-made SU-30s are reported to have bested the F-15s in a majority of their engagements, much to the surprise of the organisers.
It was the first time the two top-of-the-line US and Russian-made fighters have flown against each other in an exercise, an Air Force spokeswoman said.
It pitted F-15Cs from the Air Forces 3rd Wing out of Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska against a variety of Indian fighters, not just the SU-30s. They included Russian-built MiG-21s, MiG-29s and French-made Mirage 2000s.
Although the US fighters flew with certain restrictions that handicapped their effectiveness, the performance of the Indian fighters exceeded expectations.
“In general, we may have learned some things that suggest we may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we once thought we were,” Hornburg said.
Hornburg said the results of the exercise showed the need for the F/A-22 Raptor and the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Both aircraft are stealthier than the F-15, but the F/A-18 also has greater range and speed than the Air Forces existing fighters.
The Air Force has been battling the perception that the costly new fighters are a luxury at a time when the United States has dominance in the air.
“I thought it was a wake-up call for some things that weve been talking about before, and it provided validation,” Hornburg said.
The trade journal Aviation Week and Space Technology reported last month that the exercises showed the SU-30s had a clear advantage over the F-15C in a long-range fight.
The US and Indian aircraft were seeing each other at the same time with their radars but the SU-30 pilots were able to simulate-fire their Russian-made AA-10 “fire-and-forget” Alamo missiles first, the weekly said.
Experts say the SU-30 has a more advanced radar than the F-15C.
Hornburg said the F-15Cs that took part in “Cope India” were not equipped with the latest US active electronically scanned array radar.
“We are going to put new radars, as much as we can afford, in the F-16s and the F-15Es, and my prediction is we will have to do for the F-15C as well in due course,” the general said.
The exercise appears to hold lessons for the Air Force in East Asia, where China is acquiring SU-27 and SU-30 fighters and AA-12 air-to-air missiles.
SD-10Well, if there is no better way, I can ship you one.. The CD blank costs $32.00 + shipping and handling.. Where do you live?
About radars, do you really see any significant difference between East and West today so that Russians should be catching up with someone? I mean, Russians went ahead with their slotted and later passive phased arrays and mastered this technology up to great extent. Look at BARS, OSA-II or Zhuk-MSFE radars or Pero and Epaulet type antennas to mention the latter.
Russians don’t have any type of AESA now, IIRC, but the great question is, what does it bring? I don’t see to much endeavour from their side to finish AESA anyway.. France and Europe have their AESAed Captor and RBE2 still in development stages, Sweden does some upgrade of their Ericsson PS-05/A to AESA, Yanks got the AN/APG-80, AN/APG-77 and AN-APG-63(V)2 ready, but..
APG-63(V)2 of F-15C has failed in India pretty badly, there was no significant advantage above the N-001VE in terms of BVR and the AESA antenna alone(some 800 separate emitters each rated at $4K) costs more than the whole damn N-001. AESA surely is a very good way to wipe out taxpayer’s pockets but is there anything more about it?
Are you sure about those cope F-15 were AESA? because i read Singapore
F-15T where they mentioned APG-63(V)3 as AESA not the (V)2.
SD-10It appears that this thread is going to a different direction. My intentions were to find out if the US combat pilot is/is not better than an ordinary pilot from (for example), Israel and India. I dont understand why some people use an AWACS platforn as being “unfair” in combat situations. Israel used them during the latter part of their wars again countries who are not as technological advanced as they are….yet Israel beat them 60 or 70 to one (Bekka Valley) against Syria. Now, if we step away from that force multiplier idea, is the US pilot as good, equally good, or better than a pilot from say…Israel or India? The reason I mentioned an exercise at the start of the thread is because force multiplier are usually not taken into account. They would just dogfight and test each other when US pilots visited other countries. I dont want to go on other tangents becuase I really DONT want to talk about..”but the AWACS are soooo unfair or well what about the Chinese and what about the Pakistanis or what about the South Africans durings their campaigns against Angola?” This thread is about how great are the US pilots against another pilot from Israel and India using past excersices as examples.
You should understand that US Airforce budget is very high as compared to
some third world countries. They have full aviation industry to support high
mainatainance of planes. There may be pilots in other airforces who are
better than US pilots on individual basis. But if you are talking about whole
Airforce pilots than US is absolutely superior to any other Airforce. Just
count their 4Th generation fighters and rest of the world.
SD-10well Crobato posted weight of Gripen to around 6600Kg to 7400KG. They also claim
advance material but aircraft wings looks much smaller.
SD-10some how i doubt weight specification of LCA. Its wing area looks so bigger
than Gripen . how can it reduce its weight so much.
SD-10It is quite absurd comparision. J-10 is canard-delta design with 29,000LBs thrust
class engine. Little aircraft like gripen,FC-1 and LCA does not stand chance againt
it on individual basis.
SD-10This looks reliable.
http://www.mirage-jet.com/AIRFRAME/MAINTE_1/mainte_1.htm
The direct operating costs average approximately US$ 2,700 per hour (compared with US$ 3600 for the F 16C Blk50). The Dash 5 requires 10 Maintenance Man Hours/ Per Flight Hour (MMH/FH). Only the Gripen does better, with SAAB quoting 7.6 hours MTBF. The Gripen requires 12 MMH/FH although this is set to come down to 10 hours. The Gripen direct operating costs average about US$ 2,000. It must be borne in mind that the Gripen is a smaller aircraft and as such doesn´t have the load capacity of the Mirage 2000.
Dassault state that the Mirage 2000C delivered a 98% availability during the Gulf War, and no plane was out of service for more than 24 hours, which is exceptional given the fact that the number of planes deployed was only 14 with a total of 18 having been cycled through the detachment. During the Allied Force operation conducted over Kosovo the Mirage 2000D in fact turned in a 100% availability
SD-10well PAF fan has presented his wish with some news posts. he didnot say it is
some confirmed thing.
Sign In
