It appears certain individuals have very low mental capacity

to discern things.

Aircraft tech, Aero dynamics and Capability are 3 differrent things.

Aircraft tech is more related to FBW, Radars and EW suite along

multichannel datalinks etc

Aerodynamics has more to do with climb rates, turns rates,

accelearation, rcs etc.

Capability has more to do with weopon load, range , hard points

etc

This is a general post so i don’t want any reply for this post

understand.

Originally posted by aditya
I still dont understand why the aircraft spotted in China be indeed the same aircraft.
i

No claim, i was of the impression that Russians had sent aircraft for presentation/evaluation/testing/demo to China at least once before they got the joint contract.

On what basis you have a particular impression?. I suggest that

you wait untill more pictures come regularly just like J-10.

Originally posted by troung
[B]H-117;

“So FC-1 with BVR makes perfect sense.”

I never once said the FC-1 was not a good thing for the PAF. In theory it will go a long way to improving their manned air defense force. I have to say “in theory” because it is still in testing and its too early to pass judgments on what it will do. I would say we will all know how it works once it enters combat which is where planes make (F-16, F-15) or break (MiG-29) their reputations.

Do you read “MILITARY TECHNOLOGY”. There is long article about

FC-1 in Feb 1 issue. Basically it is full of praise even before

knowing latest any things. Very high angle of attack and excellent

subsonic performance at low altitude.

“Still it is not included in the original cost.”

No duh. But that 15 million-dollar figure for the FC-1 does not take into account the radar or avionics used and of course not the weapons. The figure once the radar is picked out could go up.

You are wrong about the price. IF it is 300 units. No matter from

where radar and every things are chosen. The price will be $15m.

And costs will be even less in case of eastern equipment at about

$10m.

“It is good unless you are distributing planes for free.”

You said “the rest of the world” the world is a big place that’s first off. And second off the F-16s are still making sales so are you mad that the USA can “cascade” older ones down to friends? Its kind of funny when you talk about customization and realize that the F-16 seems to be able to dominate most markets it is in competing in.

A rich nation like the UAE can get a tricked out F-16C/D Block 60/62 and a nation like Thailand with less finical assets can go for the F-16A/B ADF. The both feature the AIM-120 and can make use of guided missiles and bombs. That’s why the F-16 is the benchmark of the light fighter genre it seems to fit in everywhere very nicely. I don’t see the UAE, Thailand, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey (etc…) saying the F-16 is not more then good enough for their varied needs.

I have still to figure out Thailand price. Some countries just

buy products for political influence. For others it is free

distribution. lets not go there on political reasoning.

“So what about Europe.?”

The EAF already uses the Franco/German Alpha Jet and of course the British Hawk 100/110 costs more then the K-8E. So of course they went for the K-8E. Did I say that the EAF getting the K-8E was a bad choice?

What about Eastern Europe?

“If Pakistan didnot got the BVR plane in first instance so whats the probability of getting now”

They will likely not get their F-16 fleet improved unless they ditch their nuclear weapons and other stuff. Its not going to happen, so nothing will happen on the F-16 front. That’s a fact of life.

Ah but comparing the FC-1 to the F-16A/C is silly as the FC-1 is still in testing and not even on the market or in service.

I am referring to original instance. when F-16 were free given

to them with out BVR. You haven’t disclose to me what Pakistan

is willing to pay the price for F-16 or it is free. I am asking about

the price of F-16 relative to FC-1.

——

Well back to the original topic… if the BAF moves to a FC-1 and K-8 combo to fill their air defense and training needs respectively it will not be a bad move. Seeing as they are not faced with a massive external threat (probably not a safe neighborhood but not a massive risk of invasion).

I guess the success of the FC-1 in the BAF will be on how expensive it is to run for them and if they can come up with the money to keep it running. And of course it would have to be seen what type of systems they put into the plane. The K-8 would be fine to replace or complement their older jet trainers.

It remains to be seen what type of competition the FC-1 will face and how seriously would Western/Eastern nations take the competition.

If you look at the article BD wants to sell its MIG-29. It means

the origianl RD engines were very bad in terms of maintaniance.

And provide little in terms of Weopons load over FC-1.

Do You have any idea of per hr cost of Flankers?

and these twin engine fighters were not built for Close airsupport

and ground attack. They are more for BVR and Standoff weopons

which most countries cannot afford in large numbers.

That SMR-95 engine was major improvement for RD series. It

produced 7% lower fuel consumption and 4000 hrs engine life.

K-8 can be used both for basic/intermediate level.

Originally posted by troung
[B]“You can judge from this that this Aircraft is for every one except if some body does not want it.”

Maybe you don’t get what I said but think about it this way, how happy would China be if FC-1s found their way to America or better yet J-10s showing up in American?

China is not interested in US F-15,F-16. When we already have

FLankers and J-10. Only F-22 is of interest if they want to sell.

For the rest of the world FC-1 is excellent plane.

“They could have asked from US for free but Chose to spend money on China trainer.”

To be honest the USA does not offer modern basic jet trainers. The jet trainers the USA offers are the T-38 and T-37. A modern jet powered basic trainer was something Egypt would have to pay for from some other nations anyway.

So what about whole of Europe? If US does not have. Russia?

“Why all the nations of China, Russia, France, Israel, Italy, South Africa cannot make them by 2006? If it hadn’t do so by now.”

Russia, China, Italy and South Africa don’t have any real work going on it.

So you know thier industrial secrets that they are not working

on something similar and will not produce any thing by 2006.

China is working on IIR program to be ready in next few years.

And this thing will be part of it. I am confident about it.

“It is the price of non-upgraded old stuff.”

That’s the price of an AIM-120B/AIM-7M capable F-16A/B ADF.

Show me current news of whole cost. That was old thing. And

missiles were not mentioned in that news.

“Where is the link of recent request?”

http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/ads?client=ca-washingtontimes_440x144&random=1080868561320&hl=en&lmt=1080868561&format=440×144&output=html&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwashingtontimes.com%2Fworld%2F20040318-094326-7364r.htm

“U.S. officials said the new classification will not affect Pakistan’s long-stalled bid to buy sophisticated F-16 fighter jets. That request currently is being reviewed as part of a military package.”

http://www.web.mid-day.com/news/world/2004/march/79201.htm

“Pakistan is hopeful it may qualify to get F-16 aircraft”

http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-564148,prtpage-1.cms

“The US has not taken any decision to sell the sophisticated F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan , Secretary of State Colin Powell said Tuesday.”

Older buy this shows the continued interest in the plane…

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2003-daily/19-08-2003/main/main3.htm

“Belgium officially confirmed on Monday that Pakistan has made a formal request to provide up to two squadrons of F-16 fighter planes and the Belgian defence ministry, in its initial response, seems “inclined to oblige Pakistan by providing the required number”” [/B]

Is Pakistan is getting AIM-120 F-16?. Is Pakistan is asking for free

or is willing to pay for upgrade?. And request seems to me is old

and comments looks to me recent. There are too many dubious

things involved. Anyway PL-9 is better than AIM-9L. And i don’t

think US is exporting AIM-9X.

Originally posted by troung
[B]“No this shows no body wants old Aircraft.”

No it was lobbying by them and Israel, which got them the planes, so yes they wanted them. And they want more.

And FYI Italy has leased some recently, Thailand bought some, Portugal got some, Pakistan still wants them so that should more then counter your statement. The Philippines could also get the plane if a deal can be reached. So yeah the plane is still making sales even the second hand ones.

Israel got new for free. All others are just free distrbution.

You haven’t given me the link for price tag of Thai F-16?

Pakistan is aggressively after FC-1 infact they have increased

commitment to 200 FC-1. I just read.

“How many countries had purchased ACE upgrade for F-16?”

Israel got F-16Is rather then do the upgrade. It was a political move. And it is on offer to Venezuela at the moment and they are looking into that and the MLU.

“And how many had purchased old F-16s and get MLU for it?”

Portugal for one did that already. Jordan is looking into the upgrade. And some of Denmark’s MLUs are from surplus USAF stocks.

And FYI the MLU program is still going with the M-3 to have the JHMCS and be able to use the GBU-31 JDAM.

So no the F-16 is not some old plane that cannot be upgraded.

Avionics can be added to any Aircraft any time. hardly a plus
point.

“No opportunity to transfer assembly line or technology.”

The Netherlands, Belgium, South Korea and Turkey have had/still have assembly lines. A good deal of Egypt’s F-16C/Ds came from Turkish production lines.

Does the above countries export their planes from their

production lines. Certainly not without US permission.

Now Suppose Egypt gets FC-1 with TOT it can export it any where

in Africa without any permission just like PAC of Pakistan.

“As i said there are lot of countries left for FC-1 to capture the market and you cannot challenge the argument.”

And to think I said earlier that the FC-1 will likely make export sales other then just Pakistan. So that would stand as me basically agreeing with you on something. [/B]

Thats what i wanted. Complete agreement with my poinf of view.

Originally posted by troung
[B]H-117;

“Thats the point space is opening up for light multirole fighters at affordable price in next few years.”

There is no space opening up. The F-16s they had been lobbying for were supposed to replace the A-4E (24) and F-5E/F (12) and now the Flanker (total of 48) is doing just that now that the F-16 deal is over. So the space has closed to replace their older planes.

Currently it is closed. But 4 or 5 years down the line there will be

to make the numbers. You cannot ruled out this thing.

“If it is paid than i reserve the right to know their price? If it really isbelow $10M.?”

If my memory holds me right this deal came too more, at around 12 or so million a piece. That’s just the way that deal turned out.

FC-1 will be at $10M if 300 units are manufactured. Which i am

sure. It is better than 20 years old airframe with no customization

just upgradation what is available. And still you have to backup

the deal with a link.

Jordan’s in the long run came to less as they got 16 for 220 million and included in the price was the cost of setting up a support system, providing training and supplying weapons and they also got the “Falcon Up” upgrade.

But I don’t doubt the FC-1 will make export sales, seeing as the USA would not sell to say Syria, North Korea or Iran. [/B]

Did Jordan paid or it is Aid? And how old are the Aircrafts. There

was a thread they belong to 1981 batch. Almost 25 Years old. Did

it includes AIM-120B. AIM-120A is now old thing.

FC-1 is marketed both US , Russia and EU buying countries

without exception.

Originally posted by Pete_sj
How can you determine the FC-1’s performance when its first flight was not even a year ago?

70% performance of the F-16. How was this measured? Comparing pictures?

BTW, SD-10, The last picture you show is clearly of the SAAB Gripen.

I know they want to increase wing area in production models.

but we have to see.

Haley
The top picture looks to me JL-9 and the other one is FC-1.

This is i think J-10 Chengdu.