KramerThey aren’t part of the companies, they’re companies which are part of the consortia.
I wasn’t saying that RR & its partners in Eurojet, or Safran, would not be involved in the negotiations. I was just highlighting the error in the report.
and now you’re going into semantics. I meant that they were among the companies that would be part of the consortium negotiating with the MoD.
KramerThere is no Risk involved in both F-15 or Su-30.
They are extremly well tested, due to their first production date.
They been around a few years now.. so bad example.
If they cant take any more flying hour, then scrap em and get new ones.You could very well turn it around and say the F-35 could involve a huge Risk mitigation..
I fail to see your point?
Maybe you know more than that JASDF knows. :rolleyes:
They were quoted (and this was on Aviationweek’s blog) saying that they didn’t want a situation where a grounding of a particular type led to a literal paralysis of the AF.
BTW, this isn’t as strange as you make it out to be. JASDF’s entire force of F-15s was recently grounded when a drop tank and a part of a missile fell off one. That was the 2nd F-15 grounding in 3 months.
KramerRisk mitigation. India does not want almost all its combat aircraft eggs in the hands of one supplier, UAC (FGFA, Su-30 MKI, MiG-29 and MMRCA). Only the Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and LCA will be non UAC.
Having too much dependency on UAC means too much negotiating power when it comes to product upgrades, previously un-agreed up on costs etc.
While India’s experience with Sukhoi (now UAC) has been positive, its experience with MiG has been somewhat disappointing (MiG-23 and MiG-29 series especially). MiG-21 design modifications and spares as well – MiG designers and staff were oft very arrogant and standoff-ish, and only incorporated customer suggestions perforce.
Risk mitigation is one of the reasons that the Japanese were not interested in having the F-15SE as a contender for the F-4E replacement program. They contended that if a major issue grounded the F-15J fleet then the F-15SE too may be grounded, leaving them with no other fighter apart from the F-2, to deal with any situation that arises during that period. India cannot or at least should not, buy any more than the 270 Su-30MKIs it has contracted for as of now. If at a later date some major issues arise that cause it to be grounded, it would nearly paralyse the IAF.
Regarding the MiG-29 and MiG-21 experience in the IAF, FlightGlobal has many articles that illustrate your point. And a recent report in Parliament also illustrated this, where they said that the Russians are very secretive about issues with the MiG-29 and aren’t forthcoming with help for existing issues.
KramerTrue; however it’s not surprising that journalists and others don’t care about those little details.
Anyway would the European engine manufacturers be willing to share that technology? Would Eurojet be obliged to do so if India becomes a full Eurofighter partner?
Bharat Karnad is not a journalist. He is a well known Strategist in India and a part of IDSA think tank.
KramerOh dear. Neither Dassault nor EADS has such technology. They are not engine manufacturers. The technology has to come from Safran or Rolls-Royce.
Both of whom would be part of the companies that would be negotiating with the MoD when it comes time to settle a price for the deal. So Snecma (Safran Group) and Eurojet can be made to part with such technology.
KramerThe German cut, is nothing more, nothing less than the exact Tranche 3B. That this particular tranche is dead for quite some time is not exactly a secret. The German MOD was the third partner in releasing official documents stating that they wouldnt buy aircrafts from that particular Tranche.
How much of a hit is that to the total estimated Typhoon numbers then if UK, Germany, Italy and Spain all refuse to buy their share of Tranche 3B? And how much would Germany likely need to pay as penalties for reducing its numbers?
KramerSorry, but how can that happen ????
it was heavier than originally anticipated, with too much tolerance built into it to take into account the much higher rate of descent for a naval fighter. It’ll require a couple of rounds of weight reduction and optimization.
KramerI could not believe that article when i read it!
could not believe what ?
KramerPerhaps Eurofighter will be only too happy with slimmer margins. The Germans are making sizeable cuts to their procurement programme and are expected to announce such measures shortly. Berlin now wants to buy 140 instead of the contracted for 177 Eurofighters, they may attempt to emulate the UK-Saudi deal of Spring 2009 (which allowed the former to sell on part of its surplus contingent), with India.
This would save the Germans billions of Euros in penalty payments.
With so many variables, the dynamic of this race changes by the week! EADS’ hand is much stronger (imho), also M2K’s upgrade cost was a massive miscalculation by Dassault and doesn’t bode well for Rafale’s lifecycle cost in their L1 bid.
The only issue with this idea of Germany saving billions of Euros in penalty payments by transferring the 37 Typhoons to IAF (are those Tranche 3 Typhoons?) is that EADS’ commercial bid was submitted long ago. Unless the Germans knew several months ago that they were going to cut their own procurement numbers to 140 and hence ran up a chance of penalties, there is little chance of them being able to have included that in their cost calculations to reduce their margins even further.
IMO, the best bet for India would be the Rafale F3, which in the future is likely to be backed by the UAE and Brazil who could share upgrade development costs with India and France for the Rafale F4+ onwards. The fear with the Typhoon remains that Italy and Spain don’t seem to be very eager Typhoon partners which leaves UK and Germany -and even their defence budgets are shrinking rapidly. How committed they will be to funding future upgrades to keep the Typhoon viable against stealthy jets is a question.
KramerJust a small correction, actually it is Contract Negotiation Committee, that sets benchmark prices and I don’t think all its members will be IAF. They might have a representative in it though.
Not sure about that Corrosion. this link from Aviation Week states that it was the IAF that will set the benchmark prices.
The acquisition team will compare both with a benchmark price that the Indian air force has described as an informed, reasonable price for the contract.The benchmark’s factors include tenders in other countries, known commercial bids for the Typhoon and Rafale in other competitions, and inflation. Calculations will include acquisition costs, life-cycle costs and technology transfer.
KramerIAF to acquire an additional 21 Hawks for the Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team..this will mean a total of 144 Hawks in IAF and IN service..
The IAF has initiated the procurement of 21 additional Hawk aircraft, built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore.
….With the additional Hawk procurement underway, HAL chief, Ashok Nayak told Business Standard that HAL would build another 21 Hawks as soon as it completes the 123 aircraft, ordered by the IAF and the Indian Navy. “The IAF has initiated the follow-on procurement of 21 additional Hawks from BAE Systems. These are mainly for its aerobatics team, but also to replace the couple of Hawks that have been lost in crashes,” says Ashok Nayak, the HAL Chairman.
…
KramerThe entire first batch of 18 jets may not be twin seaters, since when the deal is signed, I’m sure that a fair number of IAF pilots will be sent to be trained as instructor pilots in the country of the winner, so even single seaters could be delivered and flown in India.
The breakup of single vs twin seaters out of the 126 jets is 86 single seaters and 40 twin seaters. It would of course be ideal that all the jets be delivered in final config rather than having to upgrade the first batches to final standard..will ease logistics and training.
KramerIAF all set to acquire more than the 12 C-130J’s
Impressed by early deliveries and the aircraft’s performance in recent operations, the Indian air force (IAF) is actively considering a proposal to acquire more than the 12 Lockheed-Martin C-130J Super Hercules tactical special mission aircraft already expected.
With the last of six C-130Js from an original 2008 contract to be delivered in November, and a follow-on order for six more to be signed shortly, the IAF has lavished unusual praise on the program and indicated it will ultimately need more than a dozen. The IAF has not released an official figure, but Indian sources have said it could be as many as 24 aircraft.
…
The IAF’s C-130Js operate as part of the 77 Veiled Vipers squadron at the Hindon air force base just outside New Delhi. It was recently decided that the follow-on six aircraft would join a newly formed squadron in Charbatia in the eastern peninsular state of Orissa, giving the IAF reach across the Bay of Bengal to its island territories, chiefly for deployments to the operationally significant Car Nicobar island base. Browne says the new aircraft will have “certain improvements” over the ones currently being delivered, but did not specify what those were.Interestingly, the IAF chief says Lockheed would pass on certain cost benefits from the original contract, resulting from early execution of the contract, to the follow-on order for six more. This, the IAF chief says, would translate into a discount of $60-$80 million on the follow-on foreign military sales (FMS) contract, scheduled to be signed before January 2012 (Aerospace DAILY, Oct. 4).
…
Kramer
doesn’t that leave the rafale as the only option ? I doubt that Typhoon developments could be ready in a such small time frame. Typhoon AESA radar is not even flying even in a test bed right now if I am not mistaken…And regarding AtG weapon integration I can’t say that important milestones as been cleared (or in the verge to be reached) despite the communication effort.
there is the possibility that the IAF will be ok with the first couple of batches being delivered with capabilities less than that contracted for, with the agreement that they will be upgraded at a later date to the final standard (like with the MKI deal) at no cost. And in the past, the UK did transfer 18 of its own RAF Jaguars to IAF which were used to train the first sets of air and ground crews and these were then returned to the RAF later. EADS might be able to offer some such deal to ensure that the 2014 date of induction into IAF is met.
KramerThe most information that there has been on the “Super-30” upgrade for the IAF’s Su-30MKIs..
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