And also consider the stark fact, that out of 51, only 2 M2K will be upgraded in France, so its Indian labour (involved) all the way. Hence the cost of parts is exorbitant.
But I am saying what I have been saying, I am not against the upgrade, just the extortionate price!
I’m not saying that its a cheap upgrade- just that the cost includes weapons which the MiG-29UPG upgrade didn’t. hence the comparison of the costs was not fair. Even the MiG-29UPG upgrade entails that the bulk of the MiG-29s will be upgraded by HAL.
For the Mirage upgrade, the cost of the HAL component of labour and HAL’s development of the Mission Computer is estimated to be around Rs 3000 crores so the rest being French is quite a lot. No doubt about that. But I was pointing out that the cost includes that of the MICA EM/IR and those are known to be expensive missiles.
SIPRI had estimated that the sale was for 600 MICA missiles for the Mirage-2000-5 upgrade, back in 2009. My guess is that if the MICA IR is to be used as the CCM missile for the IAF’s Mirage-2000-5, then they will need to order around 600 of these missiles. Otherwise maybe they might go for ASRAAM if its been integrated.
Top Owl is essnentially a helicopter helmet, let me know when you can cue AIM-9Xs on it….
Nonsense,
The Thales Top-Owl F is a fighter HMDS as well and in use for the IN’s MiG-29K and already integrated on the Mirage-2000-5
4) Qualified and flight proven
Qualified on Mirage 2000-5 and MiG-29
Selected by French Air Force and Dassault on Mirage 2000-5
Selected by MiG Corporation to equip MiG-29 K for the Indian Navy
It will quite a bit more costly than the L-159 and I believe that even the Yak-130 will also be cheaper than the T-50.
Last stage of trials before Tejas achieves IOC. And a pic of the Tejas LSP-4 with a live R-73 on the occasion of its 1500th flight test, courtesy of Shiv on BRF
India’s Aeronautical Development Agency is gearing up to start the last phase of flight trials for the Tejas light combat aircraft at Chitradurga in Karnataka, 100 mi. northwest of here.
This will be the first time the new test range of the Defense Research and Development Organization will be put to use.
Test pilots from the National Flight Test Center in Bengaluru are readying themselves to undertake the last leg of weapon trials/stores release in Chitradurga. “Currently, a series of trials are being done to characterize the aerodynamics of the platform,” a senior official associated with the program says. “This will be the first outing for Tejas in Chitradurga. We are now setting up the telemetry range.”
Aviation Week has learned that accuracy studies will be done at Chitradurga when Tejas releases stores. “It will be dummy trials to start with,” the official says. “The pilots will be taking off from Old Bangalore airport and land after finishing their mission in Chitradurga within 10-12 minutes.”
The certification process for Tejas is now entering its last lap with the Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac). “Once the proposed trials in Chitradurga are over, we would have finished all the parameters Tejas should have tested ahead of the initial operational clearance,” the official says.
An Empowered Committee Meeting is scheduled in New Delhi next week with the Indian air force chief to review the certification process. “Once we demonstrate all that the Indian air force [wants], the Cemilac will hand over the documents to the air force,” the official says. “By December 27, we are sure that the Tejas will enter the initial operational clearance phase. However, the production aircraft will be available to air force pilots only by mid-2011. There’s 100% clarity on everything now.”
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/TP3D9gIKvLI/AAAAAAAAEFw/ikdqVoVfeWo/s1600/Mirage.jpg
Above does not say about MICA. Even if it does, its 60K range is peanuts against Pakistan´s AIM-120 with 105K range…..stand-off disadvantage.
However, even if it costs 13%, rest of (87%) of the money goes for refitt on avionics. (no AESA). India is coming up with Astra.
BTW what was a problem ordering Magic n Matra alone?
Its not the upgrade that I am against – its fleecing of Indians by French OEM.
Well the MICA is the main missile of the Mirage-2000-5 in service anywhere. the IAF will not ask for a new missile to be integrated because that’ll cost more money.
The exact breakup of what the cost of the weapons and the upgrade itself are not known. MBDA is part of the package so that obviously means that the deal includes the price for weapons.
MBDA says it is in discussion with the Indian Defense Ministry for offsets for the Mica missile as part of the Mirage 2000 upgrade.
and this
It has been stuck in hard-nosed negotiations for the last few years because the package offered by French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator) and MBDA (missile supplier) was around 30% higher than what India was ready to pay initially.
“But the project cost has not exceeded our planned estimates. The Mirage-2000 has had a very good track record in IAF. After the upgrade, we will get a very capable, state-of-the-art fighter, which will serve for another 15-20 years,” said a senior officer….
MoD and IAF, however, say the Mirage upgrade’s scope is much bigger and sophisticated than the MiG-29 one. Under it, the multi-role fighters will get new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, jam-proof communication with data links, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems, including the all-weather, fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems.
And neither the Magic-II nor the Super-530D are in production anymore. Even Brazil when it leased the Mirage-2000Cs from France had to get 10 Super-530Ds from French stocks.
Its not just the weapons. French avionics and systems are very credible and very expensive. The Mirage 2000 upgrade for instance should come with the standard ICMS Mk3. This is a modern system, with digital receivers & integrated DRFM. Public sources indicate it has many advanced features including ESM capability, and even target localisation. In short, the Mirage upgrade would make them very modern and capable aircraft. I don’t buy into claims that they are getting the RDY3 either. This has so far been only reported by AWST, whereas earlier reports mentioned the more powerful & Mirage 2000-5 standard RDY-2.
yes and as we know the PAF didn’t get the DRFM jammers on its F-16 Block 50s. A big difference, isn’t it ?
Do you make this stuff up?
Any source for the airframe having 2000 hours left?
The number of MICAs (if any) being sold?Also interested to find out how a Mirage upgrade would make it on par with a
JHMCS/SNIPER POD/JDAM/AMRAAM equipped Block 50 F-16……
Keep your snide remarks to yourself. I’ve notified the moderator that now that you’re here on this thread, there will be flame bait posting. Its remarkable how your absence for a while kept this thread (as well as the PAF one) very civil.
Anyway, the Mirage-2000s are known to have 6000 hours or more as their fatigue life. Considering an average usage of around 1500 hours per decade for most of the fleet (150 hours per year which is standard), and the fact that the first Mirages were inducted in the mid-1980s, (the average fleet age is around 25 years) would’ve used up approx. 3750 to 4000 hours of their airframe life. That leaves around 2000 to 2200 hours on an average on the Mirages.
And their primary role being Air-Defence till most of the 1990s (they later were tasked to became more multi-role), they’ve not taken as much of a beating as some European F-16s that were tasked mainly in ground strike roles took which led to mid-life updates that required spar and other primary structure replacements.
And the IAF is not some amateur service to not know whether its fighter required life-extension or not. They’ve had NAL do indepth studies on the MiG-21Bis and the MiG-29 to find out whether their life extension was possible or not. The Mirages are well under their TTL and hence the IAF hasn’t asked for service life extension.
Regarding the MICA, the fact is that this deal INCLUDES MBDA and SIPRI has mentioned that a sale of 600 MICA missiles was going to go through for the IAF’s Mirage-2000-5s in 2009. It also said that the deal for the upgrade was to cost 1 billion Euros and obviously the rest would be for weapons to make up the $2.1 billion figure being touted now.
the Mirage upgrade includes Thales HMDS (most likely Top-OwlF) as seen on the IN’s MiG-29K. On par with the JHMCS. The Mirages already are integrated with Litening LDP and that is not going to change. They will continue to carry the IAF’s Crystal Maze bombs and Griffin as well as Paveway LGBs. RDY-2 or RDY-3 radar on par with the APG-68(V)9 and ICMS Mk2 countermeasures suite added as well as a new Electronic Warfare suite. Plus MICA-IR/EM missiles.
IN looking at the option of including AIP in the 5th and 6th Scorpene subs and then retrofitting them on the first 4 subs. And can anyone elaborate why the P-75I project for 6 more subs will suddenly become twice as expensive as these 6 Scorpenes ? They will be slightly larger, but what other capabilities are the IN planning that is so much costlier ? The technology to build them should now exist at MDL and they’re even planning on building the first in the vendor country itself, so ToT cost shouldn’t be that large.
The navy is weighing a proposal to modify the under-construction Scorpene submarines to enable the boats to stay underwater for longer periods and enhance their combat capabilities. It is considering to equip the submarines, being built at Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), with an air independent propulsion (AIP) system that can recharge their batteries without having to surface for more than three weeks. Conventional submarines have to surface almost every second day to run their air-breathing diesel engines, running the risk of detection.
Six Scorpene submarines are being built with transfer of technology from French firm DCNS, under a Rs 18,798-crore programme called Project 75. DCNS CEO Patrick Boissier, who is accompanying visiting French President Nicolas Sarkozy, said his company was in talks with the navy to equip the submarines with AIP systems.
Boissier said if a contract were to be placed by next year, AIP systems could be integrated into the fifth and the sixth submarines rolling out of MDL in 2018. The systems can be retrofitted on the first four submarines later under an upgrade programme. The navy is also looking at an indigenous AIP system being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation.
Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said the first Scorpene submarine would enter service in 2015 and the remaining six within a span of three years. The navy was supposed to induct its first Scorpene in 2012, but the project has been delayed due to issues over transfer of technology. The navy is set to collaborate with a foreign manufacturer for six more next-generation submarines under Project 75-India, pegged to be worth Rs 40,000 crore.
Navy’s New Mig29K costs something like $42 million. Why is IAF/GoI willing to pay that much for an upgrade is beyond my understanding.
What “special” capability will this upgrade bring to Mirage that MKI is not capable of? :confused:
Where is sensationalist Indian media when you need them.
New MiG-29Ks alone cost $42 million and have around 4000 flight hours on their airframe. The Mirages still have around 2000+ hours left on their airframe fatigue life without even going in for a major life extension upgrade.
It has been repeated again and again and once again I’ll repeat it. The deal INCLUDES sale of air-to-air MICA missiles for the entire 50+ Mirage-2000 fleet. At a reported price of almost $1 million each, the MICA EM/IR is not a cheap weapon for sure, but it has a great reputation, earned over time. Even assuming that they’re just buying 200 of these missiles for the entire fleet, that would be around $250 million for the MICA missiles and training rounds alone.
Without that sale, the IAF Mirages would’ve basically had no air to air weapons left anyway since the BVR semi-active Matra R-530D is almost shelf-life expired and the same is true of the Magic II WVR missiles that are the main CCM missiles of the Mirage-2000H/TH. They would’ve had to go buy an Israeli Python 5/Derby mix or European ASRAAM/MICA-EM mix and either of the two options would’ve cost money for integration and eventual certification flights and test firing. And if the radar was not upgraded, then there was no chance of any BVR weapon at all, since the RDM and RDI radars on the Mirage-2000H/THs are of old vintage and can hardly guide modern BVR weapons.
Besides, with this upgrade the IAF is getting 3 squadrons worth of fighters that will be on par with the F-16 Block 50+ of the PAF, their most potent fighter. With existing infrastructure for 150 Mirages at Gwalior, why on earth would the IAF let this fighter just become obsolete and then irrelevant?
BTW, the Mirages are the current platform of choice to deliver the IAF’s nuclear weapons. With the RDY-3’s terrain avoidance and contour mapping features for blind penetration, it will allow very low level ingress into enemy territory. A nuclear weapon carrying fighter has to remain undetected if it has to have any chance of success in its mission without committing suicide.
Agni-II+ launch soon ! Interceptor test also coming up and K-15 production in full swing !
Flush with the successful flight of surface-to-surface missile Agni-1 on Thursday , the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is preparing to launch Agni-II +, “a totally new missile,” before December 10.
The launch will take place from the Wheeler Island, off the Orissa coast, and preparations for it will begin in a few days.
The Agni-II + is a surface-to-surface missile that can carry nuclear warheads. It can strike targets 2,500 km to 3,000 km away. It is an intermediary between Agni-II and Agni-III. While Agni-II has a range of 2,500 km, Agni-III can home in on targets 3,500 km way.Agni-II + will add teeth to the country’s nuclear deterrence. It has two stages and both are powered by solid propellants. It can be transported by both rail and road.
Interceptor plannedIn the coming weeks, the DRDO plans to launch an interceptor missile as part of its efforts to establish a ballistic missile shield. “We will soon launch an interceptor from the Wheeler Island, which will intercept a ballistic missile launched from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur in Orissa,” a DRDO official said.
The interception would take place at an altitude of 15 km in what is called endo-atmosphere. The missile from Chandipur would mimic the trajectory of a ballistic missile launched from an enemy-country.
“We are trying to attempt a very different trajectory [from the earlier interceptor missions]. When the enemy missile is coming down in its trajectory, it will try to dodge the interceptor missile. The interceptor should be able to take care of this and still hit it,” the official said adding the interceptor would be a single-stage supersonic missile, called Advanced Air Defence. The attacker would be a modified Prithvi missile.
Prithvi-II launch soonThe coming weeks will see the launch of Prithvi-II, which had inducted into the Services. It can carry nuclear warheads.
“We are working on Agni-V for its maiden launch in 2011. It will be the flagship missile of the DRDO,” said a DRDO missile technologist. “The missile will have a range of 5,000 km. Agni-III will form the building block for Agni-V.”
With the addition of a third upper stage and some minor modifications, the two-stage Agni-III would transform into an awesome three-stage Agni-V. All the three stages would use solid propellants as fuel.
K-15 productionSources in the DRDO said the production of submarine-launched K-15 missile was in full swing. The missile had been renamed B-05. After the launch, the missile would go up to an altitude of 20 km in a parabola and then travel 700 km to attack enemy assets. India’s nuclear-powered submarine named “Arihant” would be armed with these missiles.
might those be the L-159s that were considered excess by the Czechs and hence available for sale with low hours?
Teer,
Things like landing gear can be made by Brazil, they have the know-how to do that(and perhaps also India?), in particular under supervision from Saab. Brazilian companies are also involved in the design of the wings and other parts.
its not about the capability to do the design. Brazil may be able to do it thanks to Embraer’s experience, but as first timers for a fast-jet it may be risky.
India designed and developed its own landing gear for the Tejas Mk1 and the N-LCA as well. But we know that on the N-LCA they believe that its landing gear is slightly overweight (stronger due to higher sink rates) and have sought consultancy from EADS (earlier LM won the deal but failed to honour it) to try and bring the weight down. By the time it is re-engined with the F414 and by the time IAC-1 arrives, the N-LCA might be ready, but the landing gear still proved to be a risky item.
Towards the end of that:
Does the US Embassy know something i don’t ?
ps: if i wish to download all content of US Embassy gossip: where’s the link ?
No the date of the cable was May 2009 and that was around the time that the Rafale was removed from the MRCA competition for not having turned in all clarifications on its technical evaluation documents.
Later on of course, they were re-instated and the Rafale was flight tested as well.
I meant that if india wants gripen with a another engine but F414 or RM12, it is possible. Both for india to change it, and for india to contract saab for it.
With the engine out, the strings to US is on the same page as Rafale.But India dont seem to see F414 as a problem.
Oh yes, it would of course be possible to re-engine it with a new Ej-230 or something like that whenever it is made available..The delays that will cause with re-integration, new series of flight tests, etc. are a different issue and need not be discussed since that actually hasn’t happened.
but the point I was making is that the F-414 is not an issue with the Tejas Mk2 because all HAL will do with it is assemble it. There is no ToT issue involved there, and kits will be supplied by GE directly.
But with the MRCA, they want technology that will allow them to gradually move to completely indigenous manufacture of the engine from indigenous sourced raw materials. This is what they did for the Su-30MKI as well where the Al-31F was finally made almost completely in India at HAL’s Koraput facility. Saab, along with Volvo Aero and GE will have to hand over critical technologies, including SCB technology to HAL. Will the USG allow this? Or will they simply raise technical and ITAR restrictions later on to withhold this kind of technology transfer, simply to scuttle the Gripen IN program? That is the risk I’m talking about. They may well offer it with the F/A-18 E/F since the entire aircraft is American. But on the Gripen NG, they stand to gain a lot less, right? They might well make it clear behind the scenes to those who need to know that if India wants the US to part with technology, it has to buy an American aircraft. We never know. But the Wikileaks have made it clear that they’re more than capable of doing that.
We now know that when it comes to losing out on a big deal, the USG will stoop to low levels and apply tremendous political pressure on India as well. Underhand tactics to win a $11+ billion deal alongwith the influence that will bring to them- oh sure the USG will resort to such tactics.
Recently posted on BRF was this pic of the MiG-27ML at Bangalore, that was the testbed for the upgrade program that was carried out on 40 MiG-27s of the IAF..
more details on this link to page
In January 2002, the IAF commenced a Service Life Extension Programme (SLEP) for 40 of its MiG-27ML aircraft. The HAL Aircraft Upgrade Research & Design Centre (AURDC) prepared two prototype “upgrade” aircraft. The first was tail number TS640, re-numbered to TU640 (reflecting upgrade), which made its maiden flight on March 25, 2004. This is the plane I captured in its now fading celebration paint scheme. It is also the first time I have captured a military aircraft doing a smokin touchdown.

They are being upgraded with new Electronic Warfare systems as mentioned in this news report
DRDO developing EW suite for MiG-27, Tejas and MiG-29
“We have successfully integrated the present electronic warfare (EW) systems with MiG-27 fighters. It will be operational from 2011. Similarly, we’ll integrate EW systems with MiG-29 fighters and Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) by 2011. They are likely to be operational by 2012,” said Prahlada.
Although all the three wings of the Indian armed forces have been using EW systems for long, upgradation of MiG fighters and Tejas is the first step forward in indigenous development by the DRDO.