KramerHow else can the lowest price turn out to be higher unless they computed life cycle costs?
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/american-engine-to-power-lca/409820/
This is a total disaster of a decision. US will not give tech easily and the project will just get delayed
How do you know that the figures quoted in that article are true? Eurojet didn’t contest that it wasn’t L1. They simply said that the best engine was not selected. If they were under-bidding the GE engine then they’d have gone berserk since it would’ve been illegal to choose the non-L1 competitor. You’re just speculating that there has been some hanky panky when in reality it might just be that someone (once again like they have so many times in the past) just passed some fake data and some cooked up story to Suman Sharma and Ajai Shukla and they faithfully published it.
Even otherwise, just go and check how much the Ej-200 engine is generally quoted as being priced and how much the F-414-400 is priced at. The Ej-200 is generally accepted as being the more expensive one.
besides, ADA and HAL have had more than a decade of working experience with GE Aviation engines, and in the past they’ve had no issues with delays or non-support.
KramerAnother bid wrested by the Americans over the Europeans using political games…the Indian govt used “life cycle” costs to show that the GE engine is cheaper. I am guessing the EJ-200 was per unit cheaper.
Baring a major surprise the MRCA will be the Hornet..
how do you know ? There has been no official release of information on the bids and the only info we have till now is Suman Sharma and Ajai Shukla’s claims that the Ej-200 engine was bid lower than the F-414..There was no official comment that stated otherwise, and they explicitly stated that the L1 winner was GE.
conspiracy theories aside, this may not be such a bad thing for the Tejas Mk2 after all, considering the F-414 EPE’s thrust rating and the possibility of the newer F-414 variants with titanium blades replaced by ceramics that could possibly reduce weight further..
KramerThe news report clearly mentions that the GE bid was L1. So, all the reports that were emanating (beginning with Suman Sharma, to Ajai Shukla) from the defence blogs that the Ej bid was nearly $150 million lower than the GE bid was hogwash..the initial reports were themselves surprising since the Ej-200 is generally considered to be more expensive than the F-414..
I wonder which particular variant the F-414 will be ? Similar to the one on the Gripen NG ? or will it be the F-414 EPE ? They will be manufacturing them in India from the 20th engine onwards..
From a purely technical perspective, it may not be a bad thing, the Tejas Mk2 will get a 22,000 lbs thrust engine which will be needed..GE Engines have a long history of working with the LCA program and even came up with the F-404-IN20 engine for the LCA Mk1 that has the highest thrust of the F-404 family..
The only question that remains is what ToT will there be ? Will there be any use of manufacturing the F-414 in India in the sense that will they gain anything ? From earlier reports, the Eurojet consortium was hinting that no big ToT was part of the contract but that they would be willing to consider it if required to.
This will definitely influence the MRCA decision..the F/A-18 E/F and Gripen NG just moved up 2 notches IMO, since their engines (F-414 and F-414 EPE) will be very similar to one already going to be manufactured in India now..
DRDO Chief Dr. Prahlada’s comments:
“Price negotiations and contract finalization will be worked in the next two months…
GE Aviation will deliver 20 GE-414 engines from 2014 and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology to our defence establishments…The GE-414 engines will be developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bangalore in collaboration with other DRDO agencies such as Aeronautical Development Agency and HAL…
We have decided to go for a new engine for the LCA Mk-2 after the Indian Air Force (IAF) sought a better engine with higher rate of performance in terms of speed, thrust and vector than GE-404 engines being used in LCA Mark-1″
KramerSome very rare IAF MiG-29 Baaz pics, courtesy of Shanksinha on BRF. one shows the MiG-29 landing at Leh airfield in Ladakh region of Kashmir.
KramerIAF’s Il-76 mounted A-50EI Phalcon with 3 MiG-29s as escort..
KramerIndia expanding its military ties with Japan..This comes close on the heels of the first ever Defence Minister visit to South Korea where MoUs were signed for increased co-operation between SoKo and India in development of technology for defence.
NEW DELHI – India is expanding its defense ties with Japan, a newfound strategic partner in the region, said a senior Defence Ministry official here.
The chief of the Indian Air Force, Air Marshal P.V. Naik, left Sept. 28 for Japan to participate in the first military-to-military talks between the two countries. Naik’s visit to Tokyo comes three months ahead of a visit to Japan by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
Defense analysts here view Indo-Japanese strategic ties as part of an effort to build regional partnerships to counter the growing influence of China.
KramerSo it seems that the IN is getting 2 decommissioned Osprey class minesweepers from the US.
The US senate has approved the transfer of two Osprey-class minehunter coastal ships to India. The two minehunter ships are Kingfisher (MHC-56) and Cormorant (MHC-57). Both were decommissioned in 2007 and now awaiting its to India.
Osprey-class coastal minehunters are designed to find, classify, and destroy moored and bottom naval mines from vital waterways. They use sonar and video systems, cable cutters and a mine detonating device that can be released and detonated by remote control.
Touted as world’s second largest minehunters, they are constructed entirely of fibre-glass and are designed to survive the shock of underwater explosions. Their primary mission is reconnaissance, classification, and neutralisation of all types of moored and bottom mines in littoral areas, harbours and coastal waterways. The ships are equipped with a high definition, variable-depth sonar, and a remotely-operated, robotic submarine used to neutralise mines.
Kramerexcellent article on the LCA by 2 very eminent gentlemen, that gives a proper explanation of the datelines for the program and gives a great perspective on what has actually been achieved.
Mod Edit: Please do not post lengthy cut-and-pastes from external copyrighted sources.
We have had complaints from other publishers about this practice.
A summary and a link is quite sufficient.
KramerYes, but honestly, you buy Block52+ in 2010 and you order AIM-9L and Sparrow? The other users of the L or M had bought it many years ago and of course didn’t want to throw them away.This is the US ordering on behalf of Iraq. Would any other F-16 user in the world order today Ls or Sparrows? Everyone wants HOBS nowdays. And when you buy a new aircraft that can use them, there is no point in buying new aircraft with older technology ammunition.
Aspis, Arrows was talking about the AIM-9M deal that the Pakistanis signed up for..they got JHMCS with their 18 new F-16 Block 52s, and bought 500 AIM-120C6’s but not the AIM-9X. They instead went in for the AIM-9M.
As for the Iraqi’s, it’s quite clear that $4 billion for 18 F-16s and outdated weaponry like the AIM-7 and older variants like the AIM-9M when more modern versions are available is quite a rip off..It’s a pity that the IrAF is not going to look to EU for the Gripen NG with Meteor/IRIS-T/ASRAAM..would be a far more capable airspace defender.
Kramerso the RFP has been sent to Ilyushin despite the IAF making it clear that it is not interested in the Il-78 as the next tanker transport..as they’re well versed with it, they’ll simply put some clauses in the RFP that the Il-78 will not be able to meet and that way eliminate it from the competition..so it’ll be a head to head between the Airbus A-330 MRTT and the Boeing 767 or Boeing 777 tanker..
Almost nine months after cancelling a contract to buy a new fleet of mid-air refueling aircraft, the Defence Ministry has started a new hunt, with tenders for a fresh procurement being sent to global aviation companies.
Fresh requests for proposals (RFP) have been issued to aviation firms in the US, Europe and Russia for six tankers that are expected to cost around $2 billion.
The fresh requests come after the earlier purchase bid hit a nasty roadblock last year. The Finance Ministry had objected to the high cost and lack of commercial competitiveness in the contract that led to the selection of the European Airbus 330 MRTT aircraft.
While the requirements have not been changed in the new tender, life cycle costs have been added to the RFP, sources said.
In the last selection round, only two companies — European Airbus (EADS) and Russian Rosoboronexport — made it to the trials. This time, more are expected to take part. “We have received the RFP and are conducting a detailed evaluation of the request and will make a decision based on that information,” Vivek Lall, vice-president, Boeing Defense, Space and Security, India said.
It will take at least two years for the Defence Ministry to select an aircraft as per the procurement policy. …..
In February, Defence Minister AK Antony revealed that despite repeated requests by the Air Force, the Finance Ministry scuttled a mega tender but cleared another contract to procure VVIP choppers because of ‘changed security scenario’. …..
Antony said the Defence Ministry sent the tanker contract for clearance thrice to the Finance Ministry but was forced to withdraw it due to the Finance Ministry’s disapproval. “We had sent it to the Finance Ministry three times. Unless Finance Ministry agrees to take it up with CCS, we cannot go ahead. Finance ministry told us categorically they will not support it (in the CCS),” Antony had said.
The Finance Ministry had pointed out that the IAF already operated a fleet of the IL 78 refueling aircraft, the last of which was inducted in late 2004, making it easier to induct a larger number of the aircraft.
The IAF, however, made it clear that it was not in the favour of continuing the Russian origin IL 78 aircraft as its mid-air tanker of the future. The Russian aircraft was the only other contender in the ongoing contract but was rejected by the IAF, which found the Airbus a superior tanker.
KramerLong range F-16s, conformal tanks and AMRAAMS gifted to Pakistan are a massive change in Indian defence scenario. I wonder whether IAF has gone for induction of towed decoys, DIRCMs and EWs on the aircrafts. I hope that massive and costly upgradation does not ignore the simpler stuff as was taught to us in Kargil by Stingers.
no towed decoys, MAWS or DIRCMs on any of the existing IAF aircraft, but the MRCA may change that. Simpler stuff like chaff and flare dispensers are there on every IAF aircraft now. Vayu Shakti 2010 showed it amply.
I thought that Mirage and Jags were still not done deal
Mirage upgradation deal is meant to be signed when Sarkozy visits India this year end. Supposedly all tied up and ready for signature now. the Jaguar DARIN 3 upgrade is already in the works at DRDO. Once finalised and tested on test aircraft and found suitable, it’ll be rolled out to the fleet that didn’t receive DARIN 2 upgrades.
KramerInteresting point Kramer, i wonder if a fighter has several small tanks and can automatically select from which tank to empty, ballast in mind, at least that’s what i would do.
it might, but Rolls Royce was mentioning that even with the Honeywell F-125IN engine being lighter than the Adour, it didn’t translate into a direct weight saving for the Jaguar, since ballast was required to keep CG relatively constant.
Even recently, a civilian Su-27 brought into the US had all its radar, weapons computers, pylons and associated electricals removed, which in all removed about 3000 lbs of weight..that changed the aircraft’s CG which made it more difficult to handle at higher AoA as compared to militarised Su-27s..
Kramerthanks Teer..that combined with the AFNET network that will be able to allow networking of data from the bulk if not all these sensors will allow a huge improvement over earlier radar coverage and situational awareness.
KramerShould be of interest to the Tejas, the NG and the SH…230 — 450 kg weight reduction, that’s highly significant. The EJ200 weighs 989 kg and delivers some 20,000 lbs of thrust in reheat.
The F414 weight is qouted at 1109 kg; if the most conservative weight reduction of 230 kg is achieved that would put the F414 at 879 kg, and with 22,000 lbs thrust…In addition to weight savings the new technology would also reduce fuels consumption:
Both NG and SH would benefit greatly from this I think. And perhaps also the Tejas?
Yes it does hold a lot of promise if it doesn’t have any other big drawbacks and proves to be safe during operations in all flight regimes. But the technology will take time to appear on the production F-414 and I don’t believe that (at least in the case of the Tejas), they will even take this into account at all. Already bids have been opened and Eurojet is the lowest bidder, so unless something ridiculous happens (and it can as pro-US lobbies are active in the current GoI), the Ej200 should be the engine of choice for the Tejas Mk2. The Gripen NG on the other hand could benefit from this but a major change in the engine weight will mean a change in CG which will require compensatory ballast or relocating avionics from the front regions to keep the CG somewhat constant right ? It will require re-engineering effort for sure.
KramerSo does the IAF eventually plan on fielding 10 Phalcon AWACS ? Maybe the remaining 5 will be on a different platform like a Gulfstream G550..
NEW DELHI: Having already procured three Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS), the Indian Air Force is planning to induct ten such eyes for boosting the country’s air defence.In the near future, the IAF will place fresh orders for two more PHALCON AWACS in addition to the three procured earlier.
But in the long run, it has plans of inducting a total of ten such aircraft in its fleet, Defence Ministry officials told PTI here.
With ten aircraft, the IAF hopes to provide round the clock vigil across all the frontiers, the sources said.
India inducted its first AWACS system in Delhi this year and the second was inducted into the fleet in June.
Officials said the third aircraft is expected to join the fleet by the end of this year in December. The AWACS deal was initiated in 2004 between India, Israel and Russia.
The project involved the Israeli Phalcon early-warning radar and communication suites which had to be mounted on the Russian IL-76 heavy-lift military aircraft. The deal was to the tune of USD 1.1 billion.
AWACS has complimented the IAFs capability in terms of detection and the tracking of troop build-ups or aircraft movements in border areas and enemy territories.
Besides detection of incoming cruise missiles and aircraft in a 400 kilometre range in all-weather conditions, AWACS is useful to direct air defence fighters during combat operations against enemy planes.
It will provide a much enhanced situational awareness and the capability to truly project aerospace power.
India is also working on a Rs 1,800 programme to develop its indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control system, which will be put on the three Embraer-145 jets being acquired for $210 million from Brazil.
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