Trident you’re right about the fact that most of these projects are hampered in a way by the fact that they will likely end up seeking US, French or Russian engines for propulsion purposes..India’s GTRE has been seeking a tie-up with Snecma for the Kaveri-M-88-2 hybrid engine for powering the AMCA, but whether or not that becomes a reality is not yet certain. And F-414 or Ej200 powered AMCA’s will be hampered by the fact that the most important part of the aircraft will be imported which will diminish their exportability.
The next couple of years will be interesting to see if the West (apart from the US) does take the plunge into making a 5th gen manned combat aircraft. With Russia, USA, China, India and South Korea being the nations already having committed to or in the process of committing to new clean-sheet 4.5-5th gen designs, the future manned fighter in Europe will necessarily have to be the F-35, given a likely aversion to buying something as prestigious as a frontline fighter from Russia, China or the emerging aerospace nations..EADS, Saab and Dassault’s biggest issue is the huge engineering and R&D costs involved in a decade and a half long project and the shrinking defence budgets and home markets..If they can tie up with either India or South Korea or even Brazil (if they decide on a 4.5-5th gen fighter) not only can they utilize cheaper engineering talent but can also open up a substantial user base and can share the costs/risks and rewards as well as develop a strategic ally..Japan is a big customer and would be keen on a new project to take up after the F-2 work is over..but engineering costs there will be as high as in Europe and with export restrictions in place it will be difficult to market such a fighter.
For instance, what manned fighter does Germany use beyond 2030 ? the Typhoon ? Or does it totally abandon all manned fighters and go to UCAVs only ? or does it buy F-35s ?
Sweden’s reduced defence budget means 100 fighters of the Gripen E/F type till 2040 as per the Flygvapnet. So where does that leave Saab when their home market is so tiny and already saturated ? Hawking Gripen E/Fs when PAK-FA, F-35, KFX-1, AMCA and J-XXs are around ?
What about France ? Just keep upgrading the Rafale and keep it in service till 2040 ?
Surely these and other European countries and their major aircraft manufacturers will realise that with PAK-FA and J-XX likely to enter service around 2018 or thereabouts and with a definite export market, there will be not-so-friendly nations equipped with a fighter that will be likely superior to the F-35 in air to air combat and might erode their advantage at what might be cheaper costs as well.
Israel isn’t the only nation that ought to be examining its options and taking a long hard look at whether or not they ought to invest in a future manned fighter rather than surrendering all their options to the US and the F-35.

India actually has 2 5th gen programs in the works. the FGFA derived from the PAK-FA and the stealth optimized AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft), which is in the early Project Definition (PD) phase right now. Now is the right time to join a program to make best use of the opportunities in studying concepts and finally arriving at a design for the airframe..

AMCA concept at Aero India 2009.

If Israel would be willing to participate in that program with funding as well as technological inputs and workshare agreements, India will definitely give it a good thought. after all there are a few JVs that the two nations have signed for (such as the LR-SAM project based on the Barak SAM) and they have had close relations in the defence sphere for some time now.

The AMCA won’t be anywhere near as expensive as the F-35A variant that the IsAF is looking at, so even after putting in money for development, the AMCA will be cost-effective for Israel.

Until now, the weapons traffic has been almost completely one way (Israel to India) with extensive sales of radar, guns, electronics, aerostats, AWACS, SAMs, missiles, etc..Israel has helped LRDE with the radar for the Tejas as well and there were reports of DRDO’s laboratory DARE working with Elta on the next-gen EW system for the Tejas LCA and Israel’s F-35..now that Israel cannot install their own systems on the F-35, it will likely find its way onto the AMCA in a new avatar. N-LCA’s are already slated to get the Derby missile as well from Israel..

So the precedent for cooperation and JVs is there and it would be a welcome change to see it going in the opposite direction (India to Israel) in the form of a 4.5-5th gen platform.. Israeli participation will ensure top-notch avionics and electronics on board the AMCA as well as reduce timelines for bringing the AMCA into service..

I’ve been advocating for a while now on different forums that DRDO has to find a foreign partner for the AMCA, either an OEM like Saab which is interested in participating in a 5th gen program or a nation like Israel which fits the bill perfectly. This will ensure that technological challenges are shared, risks are shared and that timelines are adhered to strictly.

more on the AMCA concept

I thought the MiG-27 had recently been temporarily grounded? They were certainly grounded in 2005/2006, the IAF are not at all happy with its safety record – it’s worse than the MiG-21’s!:eek:
I believe the Indian air force are on the verge of retiring the type, despite having recently modernised the type at great expense.

what great expense ? It was done within India, and only around 40 were modernised, not the entire fleet..the biggest issue with the MiG-27 has been the R-29 engine..now the AL-31F re-engining issue might once again become stronger.

Yes even Dassault thought the RCS trade off was insignificant to be worth the trouble, but ADA thinks otherwise and thus may be delaying a capability which can be a had earlier in case of a fixed probe.

how do you know that it was ADA that wanted the retractable probe and not the IAF ? ADA in fact, always planned on a fixed probe and the attached pics can prove it since space was always provided for plumbing for a fixed probe..now the IAF wants a retractable probe to reduce drag (at least worth 50-60 lbs if not more of drag, based on my personal experience) as well as RCS.

I see that you are quick to assign blame to ADA when the real source of the problem may not be them.

I see Swerve posted the exact same arguments as I did..will be interesting to see what real worthwhile arguments Matt brings in this discussion.

Deal for additional 47 Hawks to be signed when David Cameron arrives in India

By Douglas Barrie [email]barrie@aviationweek.com[/email], Neelam Mathews [email]mathews.neelam@gmail.com[/email]
FARNBOROUGH, NEW DELHI

The planned visit next week to India of British Prime Minister David Cameron likely will coincide with the announcement of a deal for a further 57 BAE Systems Hawk advanced jet trainer aircraft.

The state visit will see Cameron meet Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. The U.K.’s recently-elected Conservative-Liberal Democratic coalition government has already identified India as a nation with which it wants to build a strategic relationship.

The coalition is also upping support for defense export efforts, in part to soften the blow of anticipated spending cuts resulting from London’s ongoing defense review.

India ordered 66 Hawk Mk132s in 2004, with a follow-on batch anticipated. However during the course of 2009 it also looked at possible alternatives to additional Hawks.

It is anticipated that 40 of the follow-on order will be for the air force and 17 for the navy.

M.M. Pallam Raju, Minister of State for Defense, told the Press Trust of India that the detail of the contract and the terms of reference of the deal are now being negotiated with London. Raju is leading the Indian delegation at the Farnborough International Airshow.

In-country final assembly of 42 of the first batch of 66 Hawks has progressed at a slower pace that planned, causing some tension. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is carrying out final assembly of the aircraft.

I am basically stating that if the fixed probe in Rafale does not increase its RCS compared to its peers, neither should a fixed probe on LCA. All in all just saying that a fixed probe is not much of an RCS enhancer. If the LCA end up with higher RCS than the Gripen or its peers it would not be because of the probe but the overall design.

who said that it doesn’t increase RCS ? it does increase the RCS. the only thing that they found is that its not as big a RCS increase and the trade-off in removing a more complicated retractable system (retracting it requires motors) and associated costs versus RCS yielded a result that showed it was ok to place a fixed probe.

Dassault Aviation webpage

The decision to eliminate the complex systems from the early design phase (a fixed refuelling probe, but removable, fixed air intake, no airbrake, no constant speed drive due to variable frequency,…) ensures spare, maintenance man hours and support equipment reduction.

do u have any other reason ? The insurance cost aspect at least sounds plausible, since so many other posters went to great pains to try and make it seem like no technical reason was involved.

Otherwise its pie in the face of the Pak High Commission that they said it will fly and 2 days later the PAF requested that the JF-17 only be on static display..