Kramerit went through a series of high altitude tests in Russia recently where it was slung from an Il-76, which were described by Dr. V K Saraswat as being a success. What is not known is what dry thrust and what afterburner thrust it has achieved during these tests. But I personally don’t think that there is any chance of the Kaveri even going past the RFP stage. It is still an in-development engine, and while its gone through thousands of hours of testing on ground benches, it’s not in any way ready to power a fighter as yet. They first need to get it to be used on a twin-engined fighter with one of its engines being replaced with the Kaveri and only after several hundred hours of testing will it be even considered close to being ready to power a single engined fighter. It’s best not to get carried away that the Japanese sent an RFI or RFP to GTRE. They have a long way to go before becoming serious candidates for any fighter.
Kramerjust posting some LCA hot weather testing pics..no other news on the LCA after the LSP-3 first flight a few days ago, so just posting these pics.
KramerSwerve, I think that if any Air Force (if that ever happens) is interested in the LCA, they would simply have to take it up with the IAF or the MoD and they would be able to connect them with the right people in the Ministry of Defence, IAF and DRDO..I didn’t mention HAL because they are the production agency, but they are not responsible for marketing it, although they’d be intimately involved in production scheduling and so on, so any orders would have to go through them..
but I personally believe that its unlikely that the LCA will get any export orders..its been made out to be such a massive failure by the press that unless one interacts with those who actually work on it or with it, there is a negative image associated with it, even abroad..and most air force personnel are getting their reports from the press only, so until the IAF gets the LCA in service and dispels the type of negative reports that constantly float around the LCA, nobody else will be interested.
KramerI wish this happens and the IAF buys the Mig 35 or Gripen D.
Go Gripen
Go Mig
Its not a Gripen D. the Saab fanboys will mob you if you dare call the Gripen NG a Gripen D..:D
Kramercan i ask,
are the any export opportunities for the Tejas then?
If its as nice a plane as you say then it should be a welcome addition to airforces on a budget trying to replace F5s for example…
Apologies if this has been covered in the history of this topic.
export is not one of the main aims of this project and as such its not been even shown to foreign air forces as yet except at Aero India shows. It was conceived as a replacement for the IAF’s huge fleet of MiG-21s..if they devote their entire production line to the IAF (the current production line at HAL only produces 8 per year), they’ll manage to complete the current order for 40 by 2013 as the production line will be expanded gradually.
But when the LCA Mk2 appears and if it is a success, the IAF should look for 5-6 squadrons of that as well, which is nearly 126 or so. producing that many will likely take up all of the assembly line.
KramerBoeing and LM to update their price bids
Boeing, Lockheed Wait as India Delays Fighter Deal (Update1)
April 27, 2010, 12:12 AM EDTBy James Rupert
April 27 (Bloomberg) — India will miss a deadline tomorrow to complete the world’s biggest fighter-jet purchase in 15 years, risking a possible $1 billion price increase as Boeing Co. and five rival manufacturers resubmit bids.
India’s Air Force is still conducting flight trials for competing jets from Boeing, Lockheed Martin Corp. and four European companies, two years after accepting price quotes for 126 warplanes that the government said should cost about $10 billion. The bids expire April 28 and the Defense Ministry has asked manufacturers to submit offers for an additional year, its spokesman, Sitanshu Kar, said in a phone interview in New Delhi.
“The companies have been informed by the government that they can extend their bid for one more year,” Kar said. “They have the option of increasing or decreasing their price.”
The delay in buying what India describes as “multi-role combat aircraft” may raise the government’s eventual cost, said Mrinal Suman, a retired Indian army major general and arms procurement analyst. “By the recent track record, the cost of these aircraft generally goes up by 7 percent to 10 percent each year,” Suman said in a phone interview.
India’s failure to choose a plane within the planned two years “highlights that this is by far the biggest, most complex arms purchase India has ever undertaken,” said Suman, who monitors weapons procurement for the Confederation of Indian Industry.
‘Past Scandals’
Political considerations have slowed decision-making by Defense Minister A.K. Antony, said Rahul Roy-Chaudhury, senior fellow for South Asia at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.
“Antony has been trying to assure a squeaky clean deal to avoid any possible allegation of corruption, because of past scandals” that helped drive the ruling Congress Party to defeat in 1989 elections, Roy-Chaudhury said. Those scandals erupted over allegations that Indian officials took bribes in the purchase of Swedish artillery and German submarines.
Since the 1980s, no Indian government has made an open-bid arms purchase valued at as much as $100 million, or 1 percent of the fighter deal’s size, Roy-Chaudhury, Suman and other analysts say.
While the delay amid rising prices is likely to raise India’s cost, competitive pressures or exchange rate fluctuations may also counter such increases, Suman said.
India is buying the fighters as it has been phasing out Russian-built MiG jets, some of which date back to the 1970s. Twenty-one air force MiGs have crashed in the past three years, Antony said yesterday in a statement submitted in Parliament.
Himalaya Tests
The Indian air force has conducted flight trials for the six competing aircraft from a high-altitude airfield near Leh in the Himalayas, a desert base in Rajasthan state and in the tropical climate of Bangalore, Kar said. “The trials will be over shortly, maybe by the end of May,” he added.
The air force “will provide the government with two or three options that meet the technical needs, and then it will be up to the political decision makers,” Roy-Chaudhury said. Chicago-based Boeing, maker of the F/A-18 Super Hornet, and Lockheed-Martin, based in Bethesda, Maryland, which builds the F-16 fighter, may benefit from a desire by India to cement strategic ties to the United States, he said.
Lockheed-Martin “plans to update our commercial bid to ensure the best possible value to India,” company spokesman John Giese said in an e-mail. Boeing is “working to provide a compliant response” to India’s request that it extend its bid, spokesman Brian Nelson wrote in an e-mail.Sweden’s Saab AB will make no change in its bid to sell the Gripen fighter, said Eddy de la Motte, who heads the company’s campaign in India. The other contenders — Paris-based Dassault Aviation SA, Moscow-based United Aircraft Corp., and the European Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co., which has headquarters in Paris and Munich — did not comment on their plans.
“best possible value” as per LM..does that mean that they’ll drive down prices or drive it up and say that it’s still good value for money ?
And if only 2-3 are selected by the IAF, then it does make the competition very tight..
Krameryeah whatever makes you happy..
KramerIt also costs twice as much as both based on known prices for all three..weigh that factor as well.
KramerThis was known since a while ago. They missed the April 28th deadline for the period till when the bids would be considered valid. Now they have the option of submitting new bids..I thought that the European nations might make use the drop in the Euro’s value to probably improve their bids and make it more competitive. The fact that the bids have been extended till one year indicates that by then (April 28, 2011) they should be in commercial negotiations with the top 2-3 contenders. I’m also a bit surprised that Saab will not revise its bid considering that they would’ve had a lot less idea about the actual cost of the NG development 2 years ago as compared to now..either they’ve been able to stick very closely to original estimates or they feel that it’s not worth the renewed effort.
India Misses Date to Buy 126 Jets, Asks Vendors to Renew Bids
April 26, 2010, 12:20 PM EDT
By James Rupert
April 26 (Bloomberg) —India’s defense ministry said it has asked six aircraft makers to resubmit their bids to sell fighter jets worth $10 billion in the world’s biggest warplane order in 15 years.
The nation’s air force is still conducting flight trials of the competing aircraft, two years after the government accepted bids from Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and four European builders for 126 warplanes, Defense Ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said by phone in New Delhi. The bids expire April 28 and the government has asked the companies to submit new offers valid for a year, he said. “The companies have been informed by the government that they can extend their bids for one more year,” said Kar. “They have the option of increasing or decreasing their price.”
The delay in buying what India calls the “multi-role combat aircraft” may raise the government’s cost in the end, said Mrinal Suman, a retired Indian army major general who analyzes arms procurement for the Confederation of Indian Industry. “By the recent track record, the cost of these aircraft generally goes up by 7 percent to 10 percent each year,” Suman said in a phone interview.
Sweden’s Saab AB will make no change in its bid, said Eddy de la Motte, who heads the company’s campaign in India. Saab and the U.S. firms are competing against Dassault Aviation SA, European Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co., which has headquarters in Paris and Munich, and Moscow-based United Aircraft Corp.
Kramercan’t tell you that. But it was at my first Aero India in 1996.
I think I have met them all, including Rajkumar and Raveendram.
Seems so long ago now. Pleased that the LCA is finally going to enter service next year. Its been long and hard but I think the IAF are very pleased with what they are about to receive.
Regards Phil
AI 1996 was a long time ago 🙂 ..at that time no TP had even flown a LCA with 4 years to go for first flight but I’m guessing you must’ve met Rajiv Kothiyal since he was the most deeply involved TP at that time, with the bulk of the RTS and flight handling qualities being his responsibility..After reading AM Rajkumar’s book I was amazed at the amount of effort the few TPs put into the LCA program at the development stage itself..but since then there have been nearly a dozen IAF and IN test pilots who’ve flown the LCA prototypes and from statements that they’ve made in publications and documentaries, they are very happy with the LCA’s flight performance, with one even saying that when operational IAF pilots fly it eventually they will queue up to serve in LCA squadrons..
Am glad to hear from you that you believe the IAF are very pleased with what they’re about to recieve since you’ve interacted with IAF guys..after all, the LCA program has recieved a lot of bad press and the general lack of awareness (even among media) on the actual program timelines are a big contributing factor.
KramerUS Congress notified of possible sale of 10 C-17s to the IAF
NEW DELHI: The US Defence Security Cooperation Agency has notified the Congress of a potential sale of 10 Boeing C-17 transport aircraft to India.
The notification of the sales of the aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF) was submitted to the US Congress on April 22, according to an official release here.“This is an important step forward in the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) process and is a necessary prerequisite to negotiations on the deal,” the release from the US embassy said.
After hearing of the notification, US Ambassador to India Timothy J Roemer said, “The potential sale of C-17s strengthens the growing partnership between our two countries demonstrates our enduring commitment to sharing the world’s best technology with India.”
He said, the sale would offer economic benefits for India and the US and is likely to include significant job creation in both countries. “India is a leading partner in our efforts to promote regional stability, peace and economic growth,” Roemer added.
The C-17 is the workhorse of the US Air Force transport fleet and has proven to be highly reliable in the harsh environments of Iraq and Afghanistan. The IAF would use the C-17s to modernise India’s armed forces with new cargo capabilities and as a replacement for its ageing Russian IL-76 fleet.
With a 75-tonne payload, the C-17 can take off from a 7,000-foot airfield, fly 2,400 nautical miles in one go, and land even on a small, austere airfield at 3,000 feet or less. In addition to the US Air Force, the C-17 is currently in service with the British Royal Air Force, the Royal Australian Air Force, the Canadian Forces, NATO and Qatar. The UAE too has placed orders for the aircraft.
Although the official notification to Congress lists the potential value as USD 5.8 billion, this represents the highest possible estimate for the sale, and includes all potential services offered.
The actual cost will be based on IAF’s requirements and is yet to be negotiated. In addition to the C-17 airplanes themselves, if the IAF desires, it could purchase services that could include training for aircrew and maintenance personnel, spare parts, test and ground support equipment, technical assistance, engineering services, IAF-specific unique modifications, logistical and technical support.
KramerSo in a fuselage with a height of 2,3m, they manage to have a passager section with 1,90m height and a cargo hold 0,9m high?
Amazing!
haha..good catch there Arthur ! didn’t see those dimensions..some idiot produced that particular drawing I suppose..:D
KramerBEL’s missile seeker venture with Rafael of Israel for the offset requirement as part of the Spyder SAM acquisition may come through soon..they will initially manufacture the IIR and active seekers for the Python-V and Derby missiles for the Spyder SAM.
BEL missile seeker venture with Israel’s Rafael may come through this year
Madhumathi D.S.
Bangalore, April 23
Bharat Electronics’ long-planned venture to make missile seekers in the country with an Israeli partner looks set to come through this year.
The tie-up proposed between the navaratna defence enterprise and Israeli major Rafael Advanced Defence Systems has been in the works for some time.
Although the two companies signed a term sheet more than two years ago, it looks an easier prospect now than before as Rafael is agreeable to holding a lower equity of 26 per cent in the proposed venture, according to Mr Ashwani Kumar Datt, Chairman and Managing Director of BEL.
At present, the Government limits foreign direct investment in a defence venture to 26 per cent.
“We are trying to re-do the business plan and finalise (the details of the proposed joint venture),” Mr Datt told Business Line.
He did not mention the likely investment – which is expected to be at a couple of hundred crore rupees – saying, “Money is not the issue but others, such as self-reliance with limited dependence on imports.”
Mr Datt said missile systems had a good market potential in the coming years and would be an integral part of the Rs 5,000-crore company’s business.
BEL is also part of a consortium that will make Akash anti-aircraft missiles worth Rs 4,600 crore for the Air Force.
The venture, when it comes through, may involve technology transfer, manufacturing at any of BEL’s nine facilities, as also co-development of seekers for other missiles. Apart from meeting the needs of the two countries, the MoU of February 2008 had also a provision for exports.
A seeker or ‘homer’ is a mini precision guidance radar or device that is virtually the brain of missile. It detects enemy targets in air or on ground and guides the missile to destroy them.
Seeker technology, according to Dr V.K. Saraswat, Director-General of Defence Research and Development Organisation and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, who spoke at a recent event in Bangalore, is a very important but weak link that the defence R&D establishment was trying to bridge.
As the missiles portfolio development plan got enlarged, a variety of seekers would be needed in future, he had said.
The home-made Akash anti-aircraft missile, for example, does not use a seeker and is controlled and commanded from ground continuously.
KramerMore on Mahindra Aerospace’s foray into the aerospace business. they recently bought out majority stake in 2 small Aussie aerospace firms. Maybe it will be wise to involve them in the AMCA and PAK-FA projects as well from the very beginning alongwith L&T and Tatas.
KramerAn LCA test pilot once told me that it was the poor man’s Mirage 2000.
Regards Phil
haha..a compliment for the LCA if any I’d say..they hold the Mirage-2000 in very high esteem in the IAF as you’d know Phil. And the design influence of Dassault during the early stages of the PDP phase of the LCA does seem to show itself.
BTW Phil, which TP was it who said that ?
PS: must compliment you on your pictures of the IAF. have seen quite a few of them. 🙂
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