No insult intended. You were the one who claimed it had no BVR or PGM capability so I would assume the onus is on you to prove your claims?

I can claim what I did because that’s what I’ve read about it (or not read). You’re defending the JF-17 and claim that I’m wrong, and so you’d be the one wanting to prove me wrong by showing some actual proof that proves me wrong.

Please go back and actually read. You are implying JF-17 does not have a BVR or PGM capability because PAF have not released a picture of it with BVR or PGM?

Never ever occured to you that PAF may not want to release this picture yet?
We dont need to shout from the rooftops about everything.

Idont know how old you are but let me tell you a story.

In early 80s it was assumed PAF had no PGM capability, this was the case for 10 years. PAF received no targeting pods from US and (allegedly) no PGMs.

in 1989 a book was published (Defenders of Pakistan) which showed a Paveway being loaded onto a PAF F-16. PAF claimed the picture being published was an accident. It still kept quiet and it was not till the early 90s that PAF admitted to being the only country in the world to mate a non-US targeting pod onto a US aircraft and have the capability for PGM missions.

wait wait wait..its one matter to not release pictures that advertise capability..but its quite another matter to advertise capability of a fighter that you are proud to induct, and have every intention of exporting. Talking about mature fighters like the F-16 in the PAF which already had Paveway’s integrated in the US and comparing that to some Chinese fighter that has only just entered service a month ago is not quite the same.

This is like me claiming that just because the IAF never advertised that its Mirage-2000’s were capable of carrying nuclear bombs, it meant that those nukes were integrated to the LCA as well. Simply because no one mentioned it..

Your implication is that silence in this matter (both in print and videos) indicates that its been done, whereas the rest of the world doesn’t believe such things.

Now have a think about that and about what else PAF chooses to show and chooses not to show.

This is quite hard to understand. Showing a PL-12 on the JF-17 (when everyone knows that it will eventually have a BVR missile integrated) is somehow a massive secret? Or showing a LGB or a Paveway on a JF-17 would be a secret?

But let me also give you some hints from someone who may have more knowledge on the JF-17 then you

“Air Chief Marshal Suleman said it was a major step towards the goal of self-reliance in military aviation industry. He said the aircraft would replace the air force’s ageing fleet of A-5s, F-7s and Mirages.

The JF-17 Thunder is capable of carrying a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles of short and ‘beyond visual’ ranges.”

This is becoming funny now..I’ll present articles that claim that the LCA is capable of carrying anti-shipping weapons, precision guided weapons, BVR weapons, etc. and that will mean that its all been integrated in secret and the IAF or ADA is simply keeping it a secret ? I guess if I do that you’ll have to believe me.

PAF and China fully tested JF-17 for years before our first squadron beame operational. How is it “half cooked”?

that doesn’t mean that its fully operational. No BVR weapons were integrated as yet. Maybe they’ll do it when the JF-17 attains Full operational Capability. Just having a KLJ-7 radar doesn’t indicate that its got the integration all done and ready. I’m sure that like the J-10, whose videos show it firing BVR missiles, if the FC-1 had tested them, videos or pictures would’ve been made available..after all the FC-1 had flight videos available shortly after its first flight.

We will have a Block 2 version, but thats a bit like saying the orginal F-16A Block 1 was “half cooked” as it did not have the capabilities of the Block 25s.

PAF finally gets a new, cheap plane we can put in widespread service and immune from US sanctions.
LCA may not enter widespread service and IAF is already pinning its hopes on LCA MK2.

I would say both projects are having varying degrees of success. To put it politely….

PAF has alot of options other then JF-17, please dont worry.

Just as you say that the LCA may not enter widespread service, I would ask you how many orders does the JF-17 have on hand AS OF TODAY ? 45-50 ? There are as many LCA’s in order. Come back and talk about wide-spread service for the JF-17 when the next batch is actually ordered.
and isn’t the PAF not satisfied with the JF-17’s Chinese avionics which is making them look at the really expensive French options ? I mean if the Chinese avionics and BVR weapons were that good why on earth would the PAF want to make the cheap JF-17 into a not-so-cheap JF-17 with French avionics and weapons ?
Both projects also have varying degrees of complexity and obsolescence built into their designs. To put it politely…
As for worrying, why would anyone but a Pakistani worry about PAF options ?

Its the same as the new ALH Dhruv

Powerplant: 2× Shakti turboshafts, 900 kW (1,200 shp) is not bad. Its not a heavy attack helicopter of the Apache class.

correct. its not a heavy attack helicopter since its derived from a light helicopter design..Its more in the A-129 Mangusta class than the Apache.

if you closely look at the Comanche design and specs, you’ll see some similarities, for instance the general shaping, size, weight (3900 kgs, almost 900 kgs heavier than a LCH) , engine power (LHTEC T800s produce around 1432 shp compared to the 1200 shp of the Shakti)..both the Comanche and LCH have extensive usage of composites. but the Comanche had optional stub wings whereas the LCH has them fixed.

you think so? to me she merely looks a little underpowered, with only four shallow chord blades without any special aerodynamic features at their tips.

underpowered? And you’re saying that just by looking at the gunship or did you even bother to see the specs ? Its empty weight is somewhere close to 3000 kgs or so on the TD-1 prototype (they originally aimed for 2500 kgs) and its powered by 2 Turbomeca/HAL Ardiden engines that produced 1200 shp max. power output..its derived from the ALH Dhruv that has the kind of high altitude performance that is envious for even Eurocopter designs.

and you cannot see the tips but both the main and tail rotor blades are of all-composite construction, with the main rotor blade tips featuring BERP-style sections for increased cruise speed (25 kmph more than the Dhruv).

Wait, I just checked Blackhawk… That one is indeed different. What I more mean is that for a light or medium size attack helicopter it does look strange to me personal. The whole design is kind of stealth yet the tail wheel is a bit bumpy. And the headlight under/behind the gun is a strange location to me.

actually its precisely because its a light helicopter that it doesn’t have a retractable gear. just like the A-129 Mangusta doesn’t have one because there are space and weight restraints that prevent the retraction mechanism with its emergency backup, up locks and down locks and the door that would be required as well. Much easier to design a fixed “tail-dragger” that is cheaper to build, easier to maintain and has very little that will go wrong with it. basically a rugged design.

that part you’re referring to is not a headlight. its some sensor ball. probably for RWR or for the MAWS to give coverage over the front lower 120 deg or so arc..

I read it is overweight. Armor protection will be sacrificed, IMO.

much work has already been done to reduce its weight. but more needs to be done to bring it down to the level that was originally intended. thats what HAL itself says.

Too early to say same league as Eurocopter. Is your opinion based on time, meaning it is newer then Eurocopter thus it must be as advanced?

I’m guessing you mean Tiger when you say Eurocopter.

the LCH is derived from the Dhruv, of which more than 70 are in service with the Indian armed forces and export customers and more than 120 more are on order in different variants. Many of its internal systems, rotor design, transmission, engine (Shakti) are validated and proven and do not require complete and extensive certification or testing.

the WSI Dhruv is also another platform that has been flying for a while now, has some 60-70 on order. Importantly, its tested out the FLIR/Thermal imager and laser range finder/designator nose mounted sensors, the 20mm Nexter cannon as well as the Mistral missile. So the integration of these weapons and sensors has been done, tested and proven.

Sensors such as the RWR, MAWS and chaff/flare dispensers are well tested and are in operation on other helos as well..so in many ways the LCH is not a gunship that needs to be validated from scratch and its essentially based on a proven design, like how the Cobra was based on a Huey. What needs to be tested is how well these systems work on the LCH and getting a good anti-tank weapon like the indigenous HELINA working and integrated. Till such a time, the anti-armour role will still be entrusted with the Mi-25/Mi-35s.

The biggest advantage of the LCH is that it takes the performance of the Dhruv, which is known to be very good even at the very high altitudes of Siachen glacier, and gives the IA and IAF an attack helo that can perform attack roles at such heights. Even other more sophisticated gunships like the Apache would struggle at those altitudes.

Missile warning systems for Army, IAF choppers
Vijay Mohan
Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, December 6
Over a decade after an IAF chopper was shot down in combat over Kargil, Army Aviation and IAF helicopters will be equipped with indigenous missile approach warning systems (MAWS) and laser-warning receivers for self-defence.

Bharat Electronics (BEL) will initially produce about 70 such systems for the Army’s Cheetah helicopters. The lightest helicopter in the Indian inventory, Cheetahs are the lifeline of troops deployed at extreme altitudes in the northern sector and also perform vital recce and observation tasks in the forward areas.

The MAWS has been developed by the DRDO’s Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) and the DRDO claims to have successfully tested it on the IAF’s Avro transport aircraft before it was sought by the Army.

It will form part of an aircraft’s electronic warfare suite and detect an incoming anti-aircraft missile, provide advance warning to the cockpit crew for initiating evasive action and trigger defensive counter-measures like firing chaff flares or emitting false electronic signals to confuse and deflect hostile missiles.

The IAF and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) have also approached DARE to modify and validate this system for the IAF’s fleet of Mi-17 helicopters and the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) that is under development at HAL.

The medium lift Mi-17s are the only armed helicopters currently capable of operating in the high altitude areas in Jammu and Kashmir. Other armed helicopters like the older Mi-8 or the Mi-35 gunships are not capable of high altitude operations.

Well isn’t that explained by the fact that the only experienced pilots available to the new pvt airlines was the Air India ones so they poached them.

that doesn’t matter. your claim was that all PSU people are useless because of quota systems (whereas only a fraction of their employees come in that way) and only private sector employees are gems. There are some very competent people that work for the Govt. as well. Just because you’ve had a few bad experiences doesn’t mean that you can paint them all in the same brush. I’ve met some real nincompoops from the private sector too.

Anyway I was talking about ground staff..the ones you need to talk to if your flight got delayed or want to make reservations. I had a terrible experience with a piece of work at Mumbai airport who I then reported to his supervisor. I doubt anything happened.I bet you the same guy would be out on the street if he worked on a pvt airlines. I have never flown Air India after that.

Edit: Not to mention the Aunties as stewardess on Air India….;)

well that is true to a degree. but then do you also fire hte Customs guys who are rude and arrogant ? Do you fire the security guards from CISF who have a couldn’t care less attitude and hire some private firm whose employees may not even have been vouched for ? If you say yes then its clear you haven’t met TSA guys in the US either. Believe me, privatisation is not the answer to everything.

March 29 (IANS) The F-16IN Super Viper combat jet that is in the running for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 planes is the ‘most advanced’ ever built and will enable the IAF to seamlessly transit to fifth generation fighters, its manufacturer Lockheed Martin says.

This is the part that reminds me of Romania. They dangled the carrot of the F-35 and the Romanians swallowed it hook line and sinker. As if the Romanians can ever afford to buy $100 million-per-unit fighters in any significant numbers. Instead of being more reasonable and looking at second-hand Gripen A/Bs and then looking to induct the Gripen NGs at a later date, the Romanians were carried away into ordering 24 Block 25 level F-16s for $1.2 billion with support, training and infrastructure.

‘The F-16, if selected, will be the most advanced ever built. The only other such aircraft in service is with the UAE Air Force,’ Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin’s vice president (Business Development) for India, told a group of visiting Indian journalists here.

While the F-16 Block 60 does have features that none of the other Blocks have and cannot get either due to the huge effort required to make the change, the retrofit of new RACR or SABR AESA radars is a possibility for a very large number of F-16s.

‘The Super Viper has the most advanced technology and capability available today on the international market. It is truly the ultimate fourth generation fighter with all it brings to the battlefield,’ he added.

Pure marketing talk. Just like the Saab guys who tout the Gripen NG as the most advanced fighter in the world.

According to Prins, an IAF team, while evaluating the F-16 at its manufacturing facility here, had found its performance ‘unbelievable and its acceleration and capability to manoeuvre remarkable’.

Which is not surprising. Nobody ever doubted the F-16’s performance as such. Even today with all the added weight on the Block 60, UAE pilots claim its performance is “eye-watering”.

He also pointed out that the jet’s APG-80 AESA (advanced extended search array) radar was the only such operational in the international market today.

‘The AESA radar provides outstanding situational awareness and detection, ultrahigh-resolution mapping with automatic terrain following and air-to-air tracking of multiple targets,’ Prins said.

Boeing’s F-18 guys will disagree with their fellow countryman. Again goes to show how marketing talk can be far from reality.

The AESA radar apart, he also pointed out that many technologies developed for the F-35 fifth generation fighter that the US Air Force has ordered, would be incorporated in the F-16 that India purchases.

‘This will enable the IAF to seamlessly transit to the F-35 if, at some later stage, it decides to purchase the jet,’ Prins said.

Like what technologies? Of course no mention of which technologies he’s referring to because it’s all airy-fairy talk. As for enabling the IAF to “seamlessly” transit to the F-35, the IAF has not shown any interest in the F-35 and has committed to the PAK-FA. Besides, since the MRCA is meant to be a front-line fighter for the next 3 decades, this talk of “seamless transition” seems to indicate that LM is not quite so confident of the F-16 being adequately competitive down the line and in a way is peddling the F-35 for the future instead of advertising how great the F-16IN is and how it will be a viable fighter in the 2020-40 timeframe.

The Indian Navy has already submitted a request for information (RFI) for the F-35 in view of its unique short-take-off-vertical landing (STOVL) capabilities.

Which is un-related to the MRCA competition.

One set of flight trials was conducted in India last year and another in the country of manufacture earlier this year, which included the live firing of ammunition.

With the trials set to conclude next month, a shortlist will be drawn up after which the price negotiations will begin, a process that is likely to take a year before the IAF decides on the winning bidder.

I’d be amazed if things progress smoothly in this regard. The IAF will finish its part of the process on time, but the MoD is..well the less said the better.

Eighteen of the planes will be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a transfer of technology (TOT) agreement.

India’s partnership with Lockheed Martin, Prins noted, ‘can provide access to the highest technology, opportunities for technology co-development, low risk licensed production, transfer of technology and opportunities for extensive long-term business’.

The US is the most suspect of all the nations in this one sphere. Technology transfer just doesn’t come naturally to the US.

The jet’s selection would also ‘facilitate a key strategic partnership with the United States and the US Air Force that would include joint training and logistical and operational concepts’, he added.

This is the part that is ridiculous when the US is currently already selling F-16s to Pakistan..i.e to hawk a better version of the same fighter and then tout it as being the key to facilitate a strategic partnership.. How on earth can the US have a strategic partnership with 2 regional rivals when both are so antagonistic to each other? Pakistan views China as a strategic partner because it’s wary of India, and India views Russia as a strategic partner because they’re wary of Pakistan. But the US, which wants to sleep with both rivals in the same bed? Besides, the Obama administration’s commitment in this regard is very suspect.