typhoon1The question was: “Will the Eurofighter flop?”
Sales of 600+ to partner countries makes it difficult to see the aircraft as a flop. If that number is sustained, I would not call it a flop.
Export sales to 2 customers is floppy, agreed. I do not find that surprising since the A2G element was too limited compared with other possible choices (eg Singapore’s rejection on these grounds).
I will not be surprised if Eurofighter fails in upcoming selections through lack of commitment to AESA by the partner nations. Floppy approach IMO.
Further along when the aircraft offers full A2G and effective AESA I think its prospects of export sales will improve. If it gets through the first selection phase for India’s MMRCA then my opinion might change although I do understand that an aircraft that meets specifications but offers better technology transfer, offsets etc may be preferred to another even more capable aircraft.
Yep I think AESA is a must. Though the Captor at the the moment out performs most in AtA situations, just to say “we now have a AESA radar ” will catch a lot of attention as it is pictured as “state of the art”.
typhoon1Yes, there are believers of Flying spaghetti monster also.
I am impressed:diablo:, Tornado being highly agile, super cruising, supermanuverable aircraft, it did not had 49:1 ratio against slumber, unresponsive MIG-29.
Combine the F3 with AWACS support, as it was intended to be used with and you get kill ratios in excess of 100:1
sources can be found on this forum if you doubt it
typhoon1Mig 29 has a longer range than a Tornado, and a longer radar range?:rolleyes:
Mig 35 supercruising at M2 with upgraded engines?:eek::rolleyes:
totally.:o
typhoon1Good Post that Jackonicko.
Yes Typhoon has had a troubled development, but as told to me by a former RAF Typhoon project officer, a lot of the delays were caused by certian goverments in the program defaulting ………….
and the Tornado F3 won every time!!!
Real air to air combat, even in training is nothing like you see at an airshow.
Interesting post!
typhoon1There are many factors when you analyse the german 29’s performance, for example the early version of the 29’s radar was not very bright, but was good enough, the bad fame of the german 29’s radar came because the lack of spare parts…especially in the electronic field saying the german 29’s were on full capacity is actually a nonsense.
Just like the JOUST thingy, which is a one sided biased “simulation” without any full cooperation of all the design houses
I respect the EF design and tech, but is grossly overrated with “stealthy” features that does not exist, or “supermaneouverability” that does not exist , or “supersonic agility” that i bet is pretty the same of the average 4th gen figther, and a rising and rising supercruiser capacity that just make dream thir fans…so at which speed it can SC now?… M1.5?…remind me another nice example…
The marketing magic
Yep mach 1.4-5 clean and in optimum conditions :). Sorry fella, you would lose that bet sorely. Instead of coming into the discussion and throwing nonsense claims around, spend some time reading its statistics, performance, kill ratios and get a better idea of what you are talking about. :rolleyes:
typhoon1Another one from Odessa: Egyptian MiG-21, upgraded by “Odesaviaremservis”.
Is that a bis or MF? I would go for MF
typhoon1We got to set some standard here. Look.. If a Russian general or other official comes out with a press release about some hypothetical Flanker capabilities or PAK-FA, we all are just laughing, even if a general of Russian AF should count to people that are relatively well informed.. But ok, we call him a biased source, so far, so good.
I take any piece of evidence seriously…but some of their claims are dubious lets be honest. Some chap was even claiming the Su-35 to only being comparable to the F-22 and PAK-FA. But that’s not what is at issue here.
But now, not even British officials came with the story about uberflankers simulated at JOUST. There was no official press release, nothing, just an internet poster, claiming to have seen some presentations and spoken to some people. That is even less than what star49 usually provides. Funny enough, now we all should simply jump on the wagon of Typhoon supporters hungry to believe almost anything in favor of their darling aircraft.
Well you just do not understand what he is posting then.
I am not claiming Jackonicko is a liar.. But that does not mean I am buying his story.. And the same way I am not buying the claims about Typhoon having decisive edge over other contemporary designs.. There is nothing that indicates that… except for some funny simulation and some funny claims about 50:1 kill ratio coming out of nowhere.
Once again, re, kill ratio read previous posts. The whole package of what the plane offers, builds up to a decisive edge.
There is nothing biased in my view here. I am claiming that Typhoon has lost in Korea, Singapore and Brazil, it indeed has, no bias here.. Please, keep in mind that Typhoon was usually not picked as a winner even from technical point of view, IIRC, Koreans evaluated the Rafale as the most advanced design, followed by F-15K. How would you explain that if, according to you, Typhoon is so much better than anything else?
Why was it not the most advanced from a technical point of view?
Regarding how it “lost”, read the competition reports, understand it was timescales, systems integration delays, not the plane itself. That needs to be fixed urgently though really.
Sure it is. But there are designs that are equally good and I don’t see a reason why not admit that.
Flex I would admit it, if it were the case. Just for your information, I am a huge Rafale and gripen fan aswell as Russian hardware, but from my experiences they do not offer what the typhoon can.
typhoon1You might as well face it; the Eurofighter, the Rafale, the JSF, and the F-22 is vastly inferior to legacy SU-27.
You might as well give up. Turnover all your bases to the flanker boys or face temper tantrums and endless rhetoric.
Give up the idea of stealth, because it is useless against Soviet radar. (ignore that the reason they probably want you to give up the idea of stealth is so they can keep up with their inferior legacy aircraft that are big lumbering juicy radar targets, with absurdly powerful and inefficient radar that screams here I am I’m vulnerable come and get me.)
After all that old-fashioned stealth is useless and doesn’t compare to the Soviet/Klingon plasma stealth. The Soviet/Klingon plasma stealth is cheaper, more effective, simpler, ready for service, covers the entire aircraft in all aspects, is energy efficient, Al Gore approved, and simply bolt on to any aircraft. All they need is a little investment money for R&D. (never mind that there seems to be some contradictions, like if it’s ready for service, why do they need investment money for R&D?)
You have to also ignore that if the plasma stealth technology is so advanced and if stealth could be rendered ineffective with modern radar; then why are the Soviets themselves as well as others trying to develop stealth aircraft like the F-22/ JSF?
Ignore all the facts, ignore the logic. Instead blindly believe whatever rhetoric the flanker fanatics try to spoon feed you. How dare you give credence to experts and facts. How dare you critically and openly and logically analyze the facts and use logic. Instead you’re supposed to be blindly obedient to the self-appointed experts like themselves and only believe the sources and information that they spoon feed you in their context.
{please note that this post is sarcasm}
Its not that bad yet :D, but there is a strong undertone 😉
typhoon1No, YOU are missing the point. Which is that EVERY PUBLIC SOURCE AVAILABLE says that it was the Su-27M/Su-35 & NO EVIDENCE has been provided to the contrary.
Show me. Once again they are public sources, and I still do not see the point of revealing such precious data to the public and rival companies.
LOL…
What I said was an example of how you are behaving (Of course the F-22 is better for a great number a reasons), much like I can do to this,
No, the FACT is that there is NOTHING dramatically superior about the Typhoon vs other 4th generation fighters.
Lol
It DOESN’T get kill ratios in excess of 49:1.
Go read my previous post.
typhoon1People resort to emotional argumentation (read insult) when they lack objective reasoning.
Some cases I agree, this; nope.
Provide figures about the Flankers simulated in JOUST, compare them with Su-27M, prove they are vastly superior to Su-27M’s figures and we’ve got nothing to argue about. If you cannot do that, then you clearly know nothing about what was simulated, regardless of how many words ‘joke’ written in bold you throw around. It is as simple as that.
I cannot. Like I said I do not have access to anything such as that. But I do believe when someone with as much experience and research as JackoNicko has, who lets be honest, doesn’t BS, but gives decent facts, sources and tells the honest truth, I will believe what he says more than some guy simply stating the the Su-27 spec was not correct because he read it on the internet somewhere, published by, what a surprise, non EF supporters. I threw the word joke around, and deservingly so, to someone who exclaims the Eurofighter is a little better than 4th gen aircraft and nothing else.
BTW, I, too, claim the plane being just a bit better than 4th gen fighters. I even dare to claim that with its archaic mechanical radar it is in many aspects inferior to F-16E, F-18F with APG-79, Su-35BM or (ouch!) Rafale.
Good for you 🙂
On the sidenote, Typhoon has been in competition with other contemporary fighters like F-15K/SG, Rafale, Gripen, F-18E/F or Su-3x and more than often it was not chosen (in fact, if BAe haven’t intentionally screwed Gripen offer to Austria, it would have been NEVER chosen). Now please, explain to us ignorant fools, why on Earth Brazilians, Koreans or Singaporeans kicked such uberfighter out of competition and chose something else, vastly inferior, often for the same money.
Why don’t you go read the many threads on here about the sales, instead of me giving a biased view here, then you will find out 🙂
Now, please, wake up from your Typhoon dream, you are starting to get a bit annoying.
No, its an excellent fighter.
typhoon1You do realize that you use exactly the same reasoning now as star49 you despise so much, don’t you?
Typhoon is a 4th gen fighter.. live with it. Point..
Please, provide sources about 49:1 kill ratios. I hope they are not from JOUST, for God’s sake.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1175749&highlight=49#post1175749
Scroll thorough the thread for the info etc…re 49:1
BTW I don’t despise Star, he’s quite fun to have around, sometimes….
typhoon1Becasue “that” Flanker represented THE likely threat! Again, NO PUBLIC SOURCE (only Typhoon supporters on internet forums) claim that JOUST simulated anythong OTHER THAN the Su-27M/Su-35.
They DIDN’T chose a less capable Flanker variant, they chose THE MOST CAPABLE Flanker variant known to even be in development.
No, it shows intellectual honesty. The Typhoon has A BIT smaller RCS, A BIT better acceleration, A BIT better supersonic maneuverability, et cetera…There is nothing dramatically superior about the Typhoon vs other 4th generation fighters.
No, no a likely threat was not simulated, your are missing the point. The model was designed as a totally worst case scenario, that sukhoi has not even produced. Read JACK’S posts carefully because he is giving much more evidence than you.
True I do not know for definite, because I don’t have access nor does everyone saying the typhoon did’nt but a lot of the sources he (JackoNicko) has posted in the past are not available in the public domain meaning he knows alot more than you or I on the subject. Have you personally read JOUST?
Why would they release such detailed information so sukhoi could potentially improve the aircraft or design PAK-FA, with the weak points the typhoon exploited, in mind?
Re, typhoon is basically a 4th gen,
No it shows ignorance, you simply do not know what your are talking about in depth. Sure its your opinion, but its just not right.
The F-22 only brings stealth as a totally new idea to a fighter, according to you therefore, it only has a bit better everything else so, ignoring stealth its a slighter better 4th gen platform aswell :rolleyes:
If there is nothing dramatically superior why does it get kill ratios in excess of 49:1 with a bit worse 4th gen fighters, I suppose its only a bit better then. And they were the first, limited capability, production batch machines btw.
typhoon1Products do there talking? Thats why every two cent Middleastern leader goes to Moscow to prevent offensive arms sell to Iran. Fact of matter is there little confidence in EF ability by customer like RSAF even if it is backed by AWACS. thats why Sukhoi video is clearly showing Su-35 beating EF+AWACS and can do the antiship role in the same sortie. True Multifunctional fighter.
Do you use that promotional film seriously?, your are too, joking right? :confused:
star :rolleyes:
typhoon1I’ve been wondering. The MiG-25 is perfect at shooting down other planes and it is perfect at not being shot down by other planes.
Then,
could one MiG-25 shoot down another MiG-25?
The mind boggles.
Very, very tough question indeed. Can that Mig-25 shoot down the Su-35 which can dodge any missile in 6 seconds though?
typhoon1Fact of matter is EADS or other manufacturer hasnt made any claim like Sukhoi. When they make such claims than we can discuss merits of those claims.
Companies such as that let their products do the talking
Sign In
