Originally posted by Rick
Why do I suspect jkw and CDF’s Mill are one in the same?
NO NO NO NO NO NO 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡
No No
:confused:
Originally posted by jkw
The Number 9935 Ship Building ProgramIn order to speed up her naval modernization process, China needs to produce an aircraft carrier first, and then build an experimental fleet centered on the carrier. Such a fleet will have to have aerial, surface and underwater operation capabilities and, based on the lessons and experience gained from such an experimental fleet, China’s military experts will then set up a foundation for further establishing a large ocean fleet in the future. In 1992, the Chinese authorities decided on a program for studying, researching and developing aircraft carriers and Chinese leaders of various levels have done extensive feasibility studies on this project since then. In 1993, senior leaders of the Chinese Navy publicly announced that China would start researching, developing and building an aircraft carrier. In January 1993, the Chinese political leaders decided to step up their carrier program and allocated several billion dollars for it. China had planned to finish building the first aircraft carrier by 2000, but the plan has been delayed repeatedly due to lack of carrier experts and technology such as the deck catapult for take-off and landing and hooking facilities. Eventually China’s top leaders have decided to complete the carrier program in two stages.
During the first stage, to quickly improve its own carrier technology, China has bought several scrapped carriers from overseas in order to study the parts. The first such carrier was “Melbourne,” a light carrier from Australia, bought in 1994 at a cost of $1.4 million, which was subsequently towed to southern China to be disassembled, analyzed and studied by experts. The second carrier was “Minsk”, a TABKP heavy cruiser, bought in 1997 for $5 million, which, after going through 18-months’ repairs and renovations, has been turned into a floating amusement park now anchored in the bay not too far from Shenzhen. The third carrier is a same model cruiser “Kiev”, bought for $8.4 million, which was towed to Tianjin in 2000 and is now going through an overhaul to be used in the future as another tourist floating amusement park. China bought its fourth carrier in 1998, the “Varyag”, from Ukraine for $20 million, which at the time was only 70% completed, and towed to Dalian between 2001 – 2002. This carrier appears to be going through the same renovation as if it would be used as another floating amusement park, but in actual fact, its true purpose is to provide an object of study and analysis for China’s naval experts.
During the second stage, China plans to build an aircraft carrier of between 40,000 to 60,000 tons. According to Russian intelligence information, China started working on its own carrier since 1999 at Shanghai Shipyard. It would be the first one of purely Chinese design. This carrier, code named “Project 9935,” would have a 48,000 ton displacement, capable of carrying 30 – 40 fighter jets, most of which would be multi-functional SU-30MKK jets bought from Russia. It is said that this carrier would have a built-in vertical anti-air and anti-ship missile launching system. According to NATO’s categorization, such a ship can only be called a heavy aircraft cruiser, not a true aircraft carrier. China has already started working on its naval bases and harbors in Shanghai, Zanjiang and Dalian to improve docking facilities for this carrier in the future. Started in 1999, this carrier is expected to be completed by 2006, but the proper formation of an experimental ocean fleet centered on such a carrier would take another three to four years to come into shape. According to the past experience of other countries’ aircraft carrier fleet formation, it is certain that China will start building 10,000 tonnage cruisers in the near future to be convoy ships. It is also possible that China will purchase such cruisers directly from overseas, most likely the “Ukraine,” a missile cruiser from Ukraine, which is now 93% completed, and then build China’s own similar cruisers modeled on the “Ukraine.”
http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports/2004/china‘snavyroute.htm
Chinese Navy – Is China building several aircraft carriers, to a modified Admiral Gorshkov design?
Federation of American Scientists: PLAN Project 9935 (PDF format)
http://nosi.editthispage.com/2004/03/19
Originally posted by jkw
CDF
wer2
Chinese Military Aviation Forum
wer2
http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/wwwboard/index.html
The Number 9935 Ship Building Program
In order to speed up her naval modernization process, China needs to produce an aircraft carrier first, and then build an experimental fleet centered on the carrier. Such a fleet will have to have aerial, surface and underwater operation capabilities and, based on the lessons and experience gained from such an experimental fleet, China’s military experts will then set up a foundation for further establishing a large ocean fleet in the future. In 1992, the Chinese authorities decided on a program for studying, researching and developing aircraft carriers and Chinese leaders of various levels have done extensive feasibility studies on this project since then. In 1993, senior leaders of the Chinese Navy publicly announced that China would start researching, developing and building an aircraft carrier. In January 1993, the Chinese political leaders decided to step up their carrier program and allocated several billion dollars for it. China had planned to finish building the first aircraft carrier by 2000, but the plan has been delayed repeatedly due to lack of carrier experts and technology such as the deck catapult for take-off and landing and hooking facilities. Eventually China’s top leaders have decided to complete the carrier program in two stages.
During the first stage, to quickly improve its own carrier technology, China has bought several scrapped carriers from overseas in order to study the parts. The first such carrier was “Melbourne,” a light carrier from Australia, bought in 1994 at a cost of $1.4 million, which was subsequently towed to southern China to be disassembled, analyzed and studied by experts. The second carrier was “Minsk”, a TABKP heavy cruiser, bought in 1997 for $5 million, which, after going through 18-months’ repairs and renovations, has been turned into a floating amusement park now anchored in the bay not too far from Shenzhen. The third carrier is a same model cruiser “Kiev”, bought for $8.4 million, which was towed to Tianjin in 2000 and is now going through an overhaul to be used in the future as another tourist floating amusement park. China bought its fourth carrier in 1998, the “Varyag”, from Ukraine for $20 million, which at the time was only 70% completed, and towed to Dalian between 2001 – 2002. This carrier appears to be going through the same renovation as if it would be used as another floating amusement park, but in actual fact, its true purpose is to provide an object of study and analysis for China’s naval experts.
During the second stage, China plans to build an aircraft carrier of between 40,000 to 60,000 tons. According to Russian intelligence information, China started working on its own carrier since 1999 at Shanghai Shipyard. It would be the first one of purely Chinese design. This carrier, code named “Project 9935,” would have a 48,000 ton displacement, capable of carrying 30 – 40 fighter jets, most of which would be multi-functional SU-30MKK jets bought from Russia. It is said that this carrier would have a built-in vertical anti-air and anti-ship missile launching system. According to NATO’s categorization, such a ship can only be called a heavy aircraft cruiser, not a true aircraft carrier. China has already started working on its naval bases and harbors in Shanghai, Zanjiang and Dalian to improve docking facilities for this carrier in the future. Started in 1999, this carrier is expected to be completed by 2006, but the proper formation of an experimental ocean fleet centered on such a carrier would take another three to four years to come into shape. According to the past experience of other countries’ aircraft carrier fleet formation, it is certain that China will start building 10,000 tonnage cruisers in the near future to be convoy ships. It is also possible that China will purchase such cruisers directly from overseas, most likely the “Ukraine,” a missile cruiser from Ukraine, which is now 93% completed, and then build China’s own similar cruisers modeled on the “Ukraine.”
http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports/2004/china‘snavyroute.htm
Originally posted by jkw
Is this your doing also, jk??? no
CDF
wer2
Chinese Military Aviation Forum
wer2
http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/wwwboard/index.html
Originally posted by Haleyoneshoemak
Is this your doing also, jk??? no
While the PRC leadership has not yet decided to build aircraft carriers, it has approved of an aggressive research and development program. Beginning in the early 1980s this program has included the testing of hydrodynamic models and the building of a simulated carrier deck complete with a catapult and arresting gear. In 1987 a J-8II is reported to have been test flown from this deck. [106]
Shi Fei, The General Development Trend of the Chinese Military, Chengdu: Sichuan Kexue Chubanshe, pp. 2-22, cited in You Ji, p. 196.
http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports/2004/04fisher_report/8_navy_systems.htm
China’s First Aircraft Carrier Ready for Service in 2005: Report
http://taiwansecurity.org/AFP/AFP-01122000-Aircraft-Carrier.htm
😀
The PLA Navy Air Force
Table of Organization
Revision 3.3
1. General: PLANAF fixed wing combat aircraft were historically organized into 10 Air Divisions, numbered without gaps from 1 to 10. PLANAF support aircraft, both fixed wing and rotary wing, are organized into Naval Independent Regiments, numbered from 1 to 10, probably without gaps. There were historically two types of Air Divisions: Fighter Divisions and Bomber Divisions. The PLANAF was historically triangular, except where a small number of specialist aircraft did not allow this. The PLANAF is now converting to a binary organization where each Air Division will have two regiments and each regiment will have two squadrons. Formations with older aircraft retain triangular organization. Formations with newer aircraft may retain deactivated units with older aircraft in reserve status.
2. The First Air Division: Neither the base location nor the aircraft associated with the First Air Division is reported in any open source material. It is assigned to the North Sea Fleet and it must historically have been a Fighter Division. A statistical analysis of aircraft assigned to other divisions and the total number in service indicates this unit may still be a standard Fighter Division equipped with J-6 and J-5 aircraft. A map analysis of the North Sea Fleet area indicates this unit may be based at Dailan (Luda).
3. Aircraft Identification Numbers (Air Divisions): The PLANAF uses a simple and logical aircraft number identification scheme on all fixed wing combat aircraft. The first (of five) digits is ALWAYS an 8 if the aircraft is assigned to a PLANAF air division. The second digit is ALWAYS indicates which regiment (1st, 2nd or 3rd) of the division the aircraft is assigned to. The fourth (second to last) digit ALWAYS indicates the division [and therefor the base(s)] the aircraft is assigned to. This fourth digit is in fact the air division number itself, except that 0 is used for the 10th division. This system is integrated with the PLAAF aircraft numbering scheme in the sense that there are always five digits and no PLAAF aircraft number begins with 8. But while the PLAAF first and fourth digits combined DO indicate the division to which an aircraft is assigned, they do so in a coded way. [Decoded in PLAAF report]. Also, in the PLAAF, the second digit historically can be zero, if a 4th regiment is in the division.
4. Aircraft Identification Numbers (Independent Naval Regiments): The PLANAF may use a similar aircraft identification scheme for all aircraft, including rotary wing, assigned to Independent Naval Regiments. The first digit of the four digit series is always a 9. The second digit of the series appears to indicate the regiment. The last two digits of the four digit series appear to identify a specific aircraft. This system is
integrated with the PLAAF and Chinese civil air unit identification scheme in the sense
that air organizations smaller than air divisions have four digit identification numbers
and no such number begins with 9.
5. New Aircraft and Unit Conversion: The PLANAF is now buying the J-8IID fighter and JH-7 fighter/attack aircraft for its Fighter Air Divisions. It appears that the new standard Fighter Division will be one regiment of two squadrons of 10 J-8s plus one regiment of two squadrons of 10 JH-7s. [A third regiment of older aircraft may be in reserve.] The old standard organization appears to have been two regiments of three squadrons of J-5s and J-6s. At some point one of these regiments had its J-6s replaced with Q-5s (a MiG-19 derivative). These older divisions, with the exception of the 4th, now appear to have only a single active fighter regiment of two squadrons plus one Q-5 regiment of two squadrons. Military reports indicate the PLANAF is buying about one H-6D new production ASM variants each year. Aviation industry reports that only the H-6H is in production make it more likely new planes are H-6H, also a cruise missile carrier. The PLANAF is also investing in development of the J-8III fighter, the J-10II fighter bomber and the FC-1 II fighter-attack aircraft.
6. Bomber Air Divisions: The PLANAF operates three Bomber Air Divisions. All of these operate the old H-5T (unlicensed copies of the Il-18 torpedo armed variant of Soviet origin). The 10th ONLY operates the H-5T, so it might be termed an attack air division. IISS data indicates this unit may have reduced to two active regiments. Like the 4th Fighter Air Division, this unit remains triangular, operating a regiment at a different base from the rest of the division. The other two Bomber Air Divisions operate two regiments with a single squadron of H-6D bombers each of which carries two anti-shipping air launched cruise missiles. The Second Bomber Air Division operates from Sanya (Yulin International Airport). This base was the first joint PLAAF/PLANAF operating base. There are reports that the older (non-cruise missile) Navy H-6As have been converted to tankers. While still Navy owned, they operate from Leiyang with the PLAAF 48th Division. If correct, this is the second joint PLAAF/PLANAF operating base. It appears that cruise missile armed PLAAF H-6s can be assigned to the Second Bomber Division for combat operations over the South China Sea or the East China Sea. Less is known about the 3rd Bomber Air Division, based at the Shanghaiguan air base, but presumably it would supervise long range operations in the Yellow Sea or the Sea of Japan.
7. Fighter Air Divisions: Fighter Air Divisions now operate one regiment of fighters and one regiment of attack aircraft. However, these attack aircraft have a secondary air defense mission, and capability. The Q-5I was modified for Naval service by fitting it with a ranging radar and AAMs. In addition, it was fitted to carry two C-801 cruise missiles or two torpedoes. These aircraft are designated Q-5IN here (uniquely) to distinguish them from standard Q-5Is in the PLAAF and other air forces. These modifications were so successful they were incorporated into the Q-5II by the PLAAF. Similarly, the JH-7 has the ability to carry AAMs, SSMs and possibly torpedoes.
8. Patrol Aircraft: Historically, all PLANAF patrol assets have been assigned to the North Sea Fleet, with aircraft detached to other fleets as required. The Chinese Navy operates a squadron of 4 locally manufactured PS-5 flying boats. [A fifth aircraft often reported is an attrition spare and has never been used operationally. A flying prototype never outfitted with electronics also exists as a water bomber in civil service. Finally, there is or was a non-flying prototype.] These are relatively traditional four engine flying boats with surface search radars and some intercept equipment. They are known to operate from Qingdao, HQ of the North Sea Fleet. They were supplemented by 4 ex-Soviet Be-6 (Madge), which seem to have been retired. [One exists as a museum piece]. These aircraft belong to the First Naval Independent Regiment.
9. AEW and ELINT Aircraft: It is now reported that the PLANAF is operating 4 Y-8X (modified An-12 transports with AN APS-504 radars) in the maritime reconnaissance/ELINT role. They are known to carry sonabouys and IR detection gear. A further 4 Y-8J (also equipped with AN APS-504 radars, a total of 8 having been purchased) are operated by the PLANAF (apparently with less intercept equipment) as AEW aircraft. The Y-8X patrol variants could also be used in the AEW role. This combination of equipment and aircraft gives the PLANAF an impressive, if modest, patrol, signal intercept and radar warning capability. More than adequate for peacetime requirements, nevertheless these assets are insufficient to sustain operational wartime attrition for more than a short period. These aircraft belong to the Third Naval Independent Regiment.
10. The PLANAF Future Carrier Air Group: All pilots of PLANAF Fighter Air Divisions are required to “carrier qualify” at an airfield on a mock-up of HMAS Melbourne’s flight deck. [HMAS Melbourne was scrapped in China]. For this reason, it appears likely that PLAN carriers may operate aircraft from these air units, rather than dedicated carrier air groups (which have not appeared, even though two carriers are reported under construction in Shanghai). It is reported that these carriers are designed to operate about 48 aircraft . In this context, it is interesting to note that the new Fighter Air Division will have 40 active aircraft: 20 J-8II fighters and 20 JH-7 fighter/attack aircraft. The PLANAF appears to prefer the FC-1 (“Fighter China”) project to the J-11 (Su-27) as a future aircraft. [The FC-1, designed with assistance from MiG, is similar to the MiG-33, a single engine development of the MiG-29. It is designed to replace the J-6 and Q-5 at reasonable cost, having only one engine.] If this aircraft is indeed adopted, it is possible that future Fighter Air Divisions might operate about 20 J-10 or FC-1 and 20 JH-7.
11. PLANAF Carriers: While three graving docks have been built at Shanghai large enough for the new (reportedly 48,000 ton) carriers, only two seem to have been laid down. [Janes Fighting Ships 2001-2 is listing only one; Jane’s All the World’s Aircraft 2001-2 is listing two; Combat Fleets of the World 2002-3 says none]. While three graving docks are sufficient to build six carriers in 6-9 years, actually doing so is probably cost prohibitive. Since no dedicated carrier air groups are being organized, and since PLANAF Fighter Air Divisions are being required to “carrier qualify” it appears that they will provide the air groups for the first generation of Chinese aircraft carriers. There are apparently five such divisions. [If the First Air division is a Fighter Air Division and if the 10th Bomber Air Division is eventually converted to a Fighter Air Division, there would be seven such divisions.] Given that the air defense of bases and naval units over the entire length of the Chinese coast remains, it appears likely that there is no medium term requirement to outfit a large number of carriers. Instead, it seems likely the two ships under construction will be the first generation of Chinese carriers. Note that the use ability of all PLANAF fighter units to land on and fly off carriers is unique in history.
10. PLANAF Rotary Wing Assets: The PLANAF operates about 49 ASW helicopters (16 KA-28 Helix, 10 Z-8, 27 Z-9A/C). There are also 18 transport helicopters (12 Mi-8, 6 Z-5) plus 14 SAR (10 Z-8, 4 Ka-28) in PLANAF service. The ASW helicopters are operated in small detachments assigned to ships and shore bases. Presumably the Mi-8s are operated by a squadron, but specific details and basing is not known. Approximately 29 PLANAF helicopters are not armed, operating in utility and search and rescue modes. These include an experimental AEW Z-9 variant. Z-9C serve Luda DDGs. Ka-28 serve Luhai and Sovremenny. 7 machines are spares.
11. Training Aircraft: Each PLAAF air regiment normally has a training squadron equipped with trainers. Training in air academies normally lasts 48 months. Pilots then spend 48-60 months training with air divisions before becoming “third class pilots.” All pilots in the regiment may normally fly unlimited hours in the PT-6 trainer and about 150 hours in type trainers of the training unit. PLANAF training organization and practice is unknown as such. However, the types of trainers in the PLANAF imply a that a similar policy (a long period in the training establishment) is probably in place. It is known that the 7th Air Division operates training aircraft.
12. PLANAF J-7E: Photographic evidence indicates that the J-7E in PLANAF service has drop tanks for extended range missions. This aircraft has “HUD, air data computer, radar warning receiver, PL-7 missiles (4 underwing pylons)” and is otherwise a rewinged variant of the J-7. All PLANAF J-7E are operated by the 12th Regiment of the 4th Air Division. There is also a detachment of 4 JJ-7 trainers. No longer being acquired because about 12 J-8IID are being acquired per year. The J-7E is flown by the air demonstration team and might be encountered in expert hands. It is considered to be “clearly superior” to the Su-27 in close combat maneuvering.
13. Joint Tanker Operations: The PLANAF operates two aircraft capable of air refueling. The J-8IID and the Q-5 can be refueled from tankers converted from old H-6 bombers by the PLAAF. Operations and exercises involving air refueling are routine in the South Sea Fleet. It is certain that no less than 10 such tanker conversions existed in 2000 (when they were flown at 50th anniversary celebrations). It is reported that the Navy has converted its 7 old H-6 bombers, retained a loaned PLAAF “HL-6” tanker, and obtained two additional air force conversions. This group of 10 tankers, while still “owned” by the Navy, operated with the PLAAF 144th Regiment which was assigned to the 48th Air Division at Leiyang. The 48th Air Division is reported to have consolidated with the PLAAF 8th Air Division by transferring the 144th regiment to Datong. It is also reported that 4 Il-78 tankers are on order. It is not known if any of these are for the Navy. This joint operating base/unit insures that both services have tankers available for operations in or near SE China while sharing the costs. An L-6 tanker can refuel a total of four smaller aircraft, two at a time.
15. Regimental Organization: The Chinese term “flying unit” is translated as “squadron.” The term the Chinese like to translate “squadron” corresponds to the Western word “flight.” [There are typically up to five “squadrons” per “flying unit.”] Each regiment is organized as two to four “flying units” plus a “maintenance unit.” Technically, “flying units” do not have any aircraft. Rather the “maintenance unit” owns the planes and issues them as required. PLAAF regiments also normally have a “training unit” which operates basic and advanced trainers. It appears the PLANAF may have concentrated its training assets in the Seventh Air Division. The listing of aircraft “assigned” to squadrons in the database is a nominal maximum. In fact, a “flying unit” typically launches one flight of two (large) or four (small) aircraft on a mission. Launching two flights on the same mission is exceptional. But it is not impossible a single “flying unit” could launch three flights on a single mission, if pilots and aircraft were available, especially on the first day of operations.
16. Data Sources: This considers information from standard reference books from 1989-2002 including IISS Military Balance, Jane’s All the World’s Aircraft, Jane’s Fighting Ships, Brassey’s Combat Aircraft of the World, Combat Fleets of the World 2002-2003, The International Directory of Military Aircraft and the Aerospace Encyclopedia of World Aircraft. It also considers articles in the military and aviation trade press, news articles and web articles which the writer has collected in extensive files, also since 1989. The data is somewhat confusing and contradictory and requires interpretation. There are indications that the long decline in equipment numbers significantly reversed in 2002. The rate of acquisition and integration of new equipment also appears to have accelerated moderately since 1999.
17. Aircraft Identification Numbers (Minor Units): Prototype aircraft have two digit identification numbers. In PLANAF service (unlike the PLAAF) these two digits are preceded by the model (e.g. J8II01). If the PLANAF were to assign pre-production aircraft to an evaluation unit, they would have three digit identification numbers.
Originally posted by Haleyoneshoemak
The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
——————————————————————————–
Please try the following:
If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.
Open the http://www.fas.org home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
Click the Back button to try another link.
Click Search to look for information on the Internet.
HTTP 404 – File not found
Internet Explorer
CDF= MSS
I just e-mailed letting them know they may want to reconsider. Naval Open Source Intelligence also picked up the article…
Related link: FAS Project 9935
http://www.anyboard.net/gov/mil/anyboard/gindex.html
PLAN Project 9935 [Aircraft Carrier]
1. Version 1.1 (7 February 2004)
Section 1: General Characteristics:
Full Load Displacement: 48,000 tons (stated)
Standard Displacement: 44,700 tons (estimated from Orel data)
Light Displacement: 35,000 tons (estimated from Orel data)
Maximum Displacement: 52,750 tons (estimated from Orel data)
Overall Dimensions: 288x71x9 meters (calculated from Gorshkov data)
Waterline Dimensions: 254x33x9 meters (calculated from Gorshkov data)
Flight Deck Dimensions: 288×67.5 meters (calculated from Gorshkov data)
Angled Flight Deck Dimensions: 220 meters long (standard length)
Hanger Dimensions: 144×68 meters = about 9,800 sq. meters (estimated from Orel data)
Draft: 9 meters nominal, 10 meters maximum (same for all classes in design series)
Full Speed: 28 knots (stated; confirmed by calculation from Gorshkov data)
Machinery: Type: Geared Steam Turbines driving 4 shafts (same for all classes in series)
Machinery: Turbines: 4xRussian TU-12 55,000 hp maximum (49,750 hp sustained)
Machinery: Boilers: 8xRussian KVG-4 turbopressurized (640 kg/cm sq., 500 deg. C)
Machinery: Total SHP: 220,000 hp maximum (199,000 hp sustained)
Ski Jump: 15 degrees, 2 runs of 105 meters and 1 run of 170 meters (estimated from Orel
data and from model of class)
Arrester gear: 3 wire, 14 meter spacing
Catapult: 1 (on angled deck) about 85 meters long of about 30 tons capacity (estimated
from model of class and maximum weight of Su-27 aircraft family)
Hanger Capacity: 30 Su-27 class aircraft (stated to be “30-40” but calculated lower from
hanger deck dimension estimate and aircraft data) Note 1
Air Group: 30-40 (stated) See Section III [No evidence of dedicated air groups forming]
Anti-Shipping SSM: 8xUnknown. (stated) Probably YJ-12. Possibly C-803 in lead unit.
Point Defense SAM: 8xLY-60N (Aspede) mountings, 24 missiles each (2 per quarter)
Point Defense Guns: 12xType 69 Twin Gatling Guns (3 per quarter, 5 km range)
Early Warning Radar: Russian Top Pair 3D MR-800 Voskhod
Air Search Radar: Russian Top Plate 3D (dual radar antenna, back to back) D/E band
Surface Search/Air Search Radar: Type 363 E/F band
Surface Search Radar: Type 364 (ESR 1) I band; Navigation: 2xDecca 1290 I band
Aircraft Control Radar: 2xFly Trap B G/H band; Tacan: Cake Stand
Target Acquisition Radar: 2xRussian MR 700 Frecat
Fire Control Radar (Missile): 4xChinese LL-1
Fire Control Radar (Gun): 4xChinese GDG-775 (radar/tv/laser/ir) directors
Passive ECM/ESM: Type 826 plus 2 PJ-46 decoy launchers and 8 Chaff launchers
Laser Warning: 6xHalf Cup
Active ECM: Type 984 I band jammer; Type 985 E/F band jammer
SATCOM: Thomson CSF Tavitac
Sonar: DUBV-23 (hull mounted search and attack, medium frequency) (PLAN standard)
Note 1: The hanger has four tracks for moving aircraft (same for all classes in series)
Page 2
Type 9935 Page 2
Section 2: General Description:
Project 9935 is probably based on a Russian Nevskoye Design Bureau design
contracted for in 1994. An article published in China says that the final design was made
by Hudong Shipyard, Shanghai in 1999. The ship is a modified Russian Admiral
Ghorshkov carrier “to Chinese specifications.” The ship is scaled up only about 6%.
Significant changes are the mounting of all PRC point defenses and associated fire
control systems, the mounting of a steam catapult on the angled flight deck, and
modification/updating of the electronic suite. The Chinese article says that formal
authorization to build a carrier was made in 1992. This apparently refers to legislation
passed in that year which authorized “two aircraft carriers.” Three covered graving docks
were constructed at Shanghai and eyewitness reports indicate all three now have carriers
building in them. Another source says the lead ship launched in 2002 and was expected
to complete about 2004. The Chinese article says the lead ship should “commission” in
2006 and that a “battle group” should form “by 2010.” These appear to be very
conservative dates. Evidence strongly suggests that these ships are intended to be a
technical surprise in several senses, including initial operating dates. The 2006 date is
more realistic for the first carrier group. All three ships could be operational with battle
groups by 2008-2010. The Chinese article says that maintenance facilities have been
built at Shanghai, Dailan and Zhejiang. From this, and PLAN organization, it appears
each fleet will be allocated a single carrier.
The operational concept of these aircraft carriers differs from that of other nations.
Aircraft carriers are not seen as the “core” of the fleet. Rather submarines are. Instead,
carriers have a primary fleet defense mission: to provide air and anti-submarine defense
for surface forces, especially amphibious flotillas and logistic convoys. There is a
significant secondary offensive strike mission, indicated by the mounting of SSMs and
also inherent in the ability of fighter-bombers to carry offensive weapons. However, it
appears that the carriers are not intended for distant power projection operations in the
sense US CVNs are. Designed to operate near PLAN bases, they are to be offshore
aviation platforms for a mainly land based naval air force. [See Section 3 below]. This
may mean the aviation staying power of these ships is much greater than would normally
be expected if they operated dedicated air groups. Further, in the absence of the need to
buy aircraft and train crews for them, the unit cost of the carriers is lower than otherwise
would be the case, while the cost of lost maintenance assets is also less, should a carrier
be sunk. This is an imaginative, but very reasonable, application of naval air power to
the essentially regional requirements of the PLAN.
Page 3
Project 9935, Page 3
Section 3: Air Group Concept:
There is no evidence that dedicated air groups are forming for the PLAN carriers.
Nevertheless, the capacity to be building three ships simultaneously was created by
construction of three covered graving docks at Shanghai. At the same time, all PLAN
fixed wing fighter and attack pilots have been required to “carrier qualify” on a mock up
of the flight deck of HMAS Melbourne. Given this mock up is at a PLAAF base, it may
be that PLAAF pilots also have been practicing deck landings. The investment in the
carrier project also involved building maintenance facilities, purchase of foreign aircraft
carriers for study and the purchase of foreign aircraft carrier designs from Spain and
Russia. These investments, combined with the reported laying down of actual hulls,
combine with the lack of newly-formed air groups for the ships to imply that existing air
units will be assigned to them.
In this context, the description of an “air group” for the new carriers is an entirely
operational concept. Actual aircraft compliment will be determined by mission
requirements and availability. But since “availability” is in the context of the fleet, as
reinforced by other fleets and even by the air force or army aviation corps, it should result
in a much greater likelihood even a large mission requirement can be met. Further, the
ability to operate on a sustained basis should be much greater than would be possible for
any air group dedicated to the ship.
It is probably useful to understand the direction in which Chinese air force
organizations are moving. Aircraft are organized by types, with fixed wing combat
aircraft mainly assigned to air divisions, while rotary wing and specialized fixed wing
machines are assigned to independent squadrons. For fighter/attack types, air divisions
are typically subdivided into two (formerly three) air regiments, which is the operational
unit. Each regiment has two (formerly three or four) “flying units” with a nominal
compliment of 10 aircraft, and a “maintenance unit” which actually “owns” all the
aircraft of the regiment. In practice, a flying unit will operate 2, 4 or 8 aircraft, as
required by a mission. Because the flying unit has 30-50% more pilots more than its
nominal size requires, it is even theoretically possible a 12 aircraft mission could be
flown. Air force regiments also include a “training unit” which operates dissimilar as
well as similar machines, including turbo-prop trainers on which unlimited flying is
permitted. The PLAN appears to have concentrated training assets in a single air division,
and it is not clear if there is also a training unit in each regiment. But in both cases, navy
and air force fighter/strike air divisions with newer combat aircraft operate two air
regiments each of which has two flying units (squadrons). A normal full scale regimental
strike would involve up to 16 aircraft. This is the practical limit in the PLAN, because
often the regiment only has 18 machines. But PLAAF regiments have 24 machines, so
strikes of 20 or 24 aircraft are theoretically possible, especially on initial missions in any
conflict. Helicopters tend to operate singly or in small detachments, as required.
Page 4
Project 9935, Page 4
[Section 3: Air Group Concept, Continued]
Project 9935 ships appear designed to facilitate operations by two flying units
simultaneously, with up to six helicopters (fueled and armed) in deck park in addition.
[The helicopter deck park is forward of the island structure. Helicopters in this location
are stowed with rotars folded aft.] The ships have the ability to have two fighters in
position for take off runs up the angled deck plus four aircraft parked beside the long
island structure (photographic evaluation of Adm. Kuznetzov operations during
evaluation operations with Chinese and Indian observers). There is sufficient deck for
up to four additional machines aft of the island. At the same time, a different flying unit
would have access to the angled flight deck, and its catapult. If operated in this mode,
both elevators are unavailable for use, being used as additional deck park space. More
normally, one flying unit, plus some helicopters, might be operating. Apparently it is
normal to use only the aft elevator, as trucks or helicopters normally are parked on the
forward one. Even so, it is apparent a single Project 9935 ship could have elements of
two regiments embarked, one on the flight deck, one on the hanger deck. As described
above, a regimental strike would normally involve up to 16 aircraft.
A more typical operational aircraft compliment would probably involve a single
regiment of fighter/attack aircraft. This would typically be 8 or 16 aircraft, depending on
the mission requirement. One also would expect a compliment of 4-8 ASW helicopters, a
detachment of 2 SAR helicopters and a detachment of 2 AEW helicopters. If the newest
aircraft available to the Navy were assigned, one would expect the jets to be a carrier
variant of the Su-30 (two batches of 20 ordered in 2003 for the PLAN) plus variants of
the Ka-28 Helix. If older aircraft are operated, one might encounter J-6 (MiG-19), J-7
(MiG-21) or J-8 fighters (two engine mod of MiG-21), JH-7 (Chinese design) or Q-5
(mod MiG-19) attack aircraft, and Z-8 (Super Frelon) or Z-9 (Dauphin) helicopters. If
Army Aviation Corps helicopters were embarked, the most likely would include Mi-181
transports and the attack variant of the Z-9.
Section 4: Strike Operations:
PLAN literature concludes that it takes 8 to 10 cruise missile hits to disable a US
CVN. At the same time, they require an average of 4 cruise missile hits on half the
escorts of the enemy battle group. To achieve this, they estimate 70 to 100 cruise
missiles should be launched on three or more threat axis. If a carrier were to participate
in such an attack, it and its escorts would launch 24-40 cruise missiles as one component
while an air regiment would deliver about 32 cruise missiles on another axis. The
remainder would have to come from surface action groups and submarines. It is very
difficult to coordinate launching such multiple attacks simultaneously. The critical issue
is detecting and tracking the enemy target task force. If this can be achieved, probably by
satellite or MR aircraft, and if all elements of the attacking force could reach firing
position before being engaged, this (Russian) attack concept is potentially effective.
Page 5
Project 9935, Page 5
Section 5: Possible Carrier Battle Group:
With one carrier nearing commissioning and a second unit launched, it is
notworthy the PLAN operates 2 Sovremenny class DDGs and will obtain 2 more by 2005.
This might imply an intention to form up 2 DDGs with area defense SAMs with each
carrier battle group. However, note that, in spite of its SA-N-7 area defense SAM system,
the Sovremenny is primarily a surface attack vessel. It is more likely the ships of this
class will serve as flagships for surface attack groups which can also provided limited
area defense SAM defenses for other naval surface units (e.g., amphibious ships and
logistics task units). The should be expected to attempt to lead a group of surface attack
ships in any coordinated attack on a major enemy task force. The Sovremenny SSM is
particularly formidable, and launched in a coordinated way with other SSMs (so that the
missiles reach the prospective target about the same time), it might be particularly
difficult to defeat them all.
The PLAN is also building AAW ships of its own. The newest, 168 class DDGs,
appear to also use the SA-N-7, from the same type of launcher as the Sovremenny
(implying this, and not VLS, is the new PLAN standard). As three of these ships are
building, and all are likely to complete in time, it is likely that eventually one will be
assigned as the primary AAW escort to each carrier battle group. They will apparently
use the Chinese C-803 SSM, and will have the ability to combine these missiles with
those from the carrier in a surface strike evolution. They probably will have a data link
capability, so they could effectively form an integrated tactical team with a new carrier.
In addition, the PLAN has 3 older AAW ships, 2 Luhu and 1 Luhai class. They
were built with the HQ-7 SAM (a Chinese variant of Crotale) and have a significant
capability to operate 2 ASW helicopters. They carry the C-802 SSM (some reports
indicate it may have been upgraded to C-803 standard). It is possible one of these ships
might also be assigned to a carrier battle group. Older DDGs of the Luda class, also
equipped with the HQ-7, might be assigned, but they lack significant ASW capability and
they do not carry current generation SSMs which would be tactically effective if
combined with those on the carrier and her primary AAW escorts.
China operates six Jiangwei II type missile frigates (although possibly 2 will
transfer to Pakistan, if it can ever pay for them). If the PLAN intended to have six units,
this may imply 2 would be available for assignment to each carrier battle group. Also
armed with the HQ-7 SAM, these ships have a significant (2 helicopter) ASW capability.
At the same time, they are armed with the C-802 SSM, and may be upgrading to the C-
803. If this appreciation is correct, three carrier battle groups could form by 2008 using
ships existing or building. Each would have one CV, one 168 type DDG, one Luhu or
Luhai class DDG, and two Jiangwei II class DEG.
Page 6
Type 9935, Page 6
[Section 5: Possible Carrier Battle Group (Continued)]
A Chinese language article says as many as 8 surface ships might be assigned to a
carrier battle group. This is possible if fewer carrier battle groups are deployed, if the
Russian DDGs are assigned to carrier battle groups, or if older ships are also assigned to
them. The same article indicates as many as 4 submarines might be assigned to the battle
group. This is possible, but coordination between surface ships and submarines is
difficult. Nevertheless, Chinese military literature mentions tactics such as “decoy and
ambush” involving submarines. [In this case, an older Romeo class submarine
maneuvers in a way likely to be detected – for example running diesel engines
underwater as is normal when charging batteries – to attract an attack by a US SSN or
Taiwanese attack submarine. A quiet Kilo, in ambush nearby, might be able to solve her
fire control problem from the noise generated by the attack on the Romeo.] In a similar
way, a carrier battle group might serve as “bait” for a suspected US SSN, drawing her
into an attack position at risk from a prepositioned line of Kilos, unmoving and therefore
almost undetectable. Such a tactic would not involve communications, if it were pre-
planned
Originally posted by google
You do that, and there will be no ships left over for the North/South Sea Fleets. No one denies that China has carrier ambitions; but that time is not now.
CVBG by 2010
Soth Sea Fleets
1CV 48,000T
DGG 170/171
DDG 188/189
FGG T54
Originally posted by Rick
jkw, are you defending the article elcid wrote by citing his writings at globalsecurity?I don’t think anyone is arguing that China doesn’t want a carrier. It is very doubful that any aircraft in the Chinese Naval Air Force at this time will end up on a carrier. The idea that every naval air force pilot will be required to be carrier certified in the aircraft they are flying now is just silly.
Elcid ????:confused:
Originally posted by google
It didn’t mention anything about building a carrier, did it? So it’s an expansion in their naval forces- still not enough for a carrier battle group.
Action: The screen shows a list of the number and type of ships and their primary role for a typical carrier battle group:
1 Carrier (CV/CVN) — Strike warfare
2 Cruisers (CG) — Air warfare (TBMD)
3 Destroyers/Frigates (DD(G)/FFG) — Surface and undersea warfare
2 Attack submarines (SSN) — Surface and undersea warfare
1 Fast Combat Support (AOE) — Replenishment
http://www.cadre.maxwell.af.mil/warfarestudies/wpc/wpc_txt/navy/cvbg.htm
Cruisers
10,000
Additional construction is possible, depending on results with the initial units. There is some speculation that after the second unit of this class, anew design would be constructed, with a 10,000 ton displacement. This might be equipped with the “Rif” Naval S-300 system in a vertical launching system (VLS).
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/luhai.htm
Destroyers
Type 052C Guided Missile Destroyer
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/052c.asp
FFG
PROGRAMME
In addition to the two classes of missile destroyers (Type 052B/C) currently under construction, the PLA Navy is also building a new class of frigate for its surface fleet. Reportedly designated as Type 054, the new frigate is a 3,400t class stealthy surface combatant similar to the French-built Lafayette class. Meanwhile two ships are under construction at Hudong Zhonghua Shipyard in Shanghai and Huangpu Shipyard in Guangzhou respectively. The ship 525 built in Hudong Zhonghua Shipyard was launched on 11 September 2003.
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/newffg.asp
SSN
The new Type 93 SSN is expected to be similar in performance to Russian second generation designs such as the Victor III. In summer 2001, one or two newly constructed “093 project” attack submarines participated in Dongshan maneuvers near the coast of Fujian province, about 200 km from Taiwan.
By 2006, PLAN could acquire at least four “093 project” submarines, equipped by anti-ship cruise missiles with a range of up to 500 km (somewhat similar to Russia’s Granit anti-ship missiles) and land-attack cruise missiles (LACMs) with a range of up to 2,500 km (similar to Russia’s Granat LACMs).
http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/pla_navy.htm
Originally posted by google
What does this have to do with building carriers? Nothing.
What’s more interesting than carriers is the quiet increase in landing craft, and the possible construction of a new LPD.
Building an ageas class destroyer, and building frigates that are over 3,000 tons have really nothing to do with building an air craft carrier. (A little sarcasm here)
Originally posted by GoldenDragon
If you look at the Chinese carrier rumours carefully, nearly all of it comes from Western conjecture.There really isn’t anything from the Chinese side except for buying up old Russian carriers and turning them into theme parks.
CHINA ACCELERATES NAVY BUILDING
By Richard D. Fisher, Jr.
A naval arms race is now underway across the Taiwan Strait that has wider implications for the United States and its Asian allies. While the government of Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian had hoped to make the Taiwan Navy its top military modernization priority, it is becoming increasingly clear that China will handily exceed Taiwan’s modest goals–which are now in some doubt.
In early 2001 U.S. President George Bush made a commitment to assist a long delayed naval modernization for Taiwan by agreeing to sell to Taipei eight new conventional submarines, four KIDD-class air defense destroyers, and twelve P-3 ORION anti-submarine patrol aircraft. The decision reversed an eight year period of neglect by President Bill Clinton. Like Clinton, however, Bush did not sell to Taiwan the long desired AEGIS air-defense destroyers. In mid-2003 it appears that Taiwan cannot afford new submarines, and could opt for used ones. Taipei may also seek to purchase less expensive, used P-3s over newly built models. The purchase of AEGIS ships looks more distant.
In sharp contrast, and with the possible exception of sophisticated sub-hunting aircraft, it now appears that the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) will acquire within this decade a larger number of all the naval systems that Taiwan had hoped to purchase. This build-up will likely advance two goals: 1) increase China’s ability to pursue a range of coercive strategies toward Taiwan, including a naval blockade; and 2) impede or prevent U.S. forces from coming to Taiwan’s “rescue.” To accomplish these missions, the PLA seeks to meld new long range satellite and radar sensors to coordinate attacks by air, surface and submarine platforms armed with deadly new long range supersonic missiles.
Because military acquisitions are undertaken within a Five Year Plan, Beijing’s naval build-up decisions were formulated in the late 1990s. While the PLAN received widespread negative press over the accidental loss of a submarine crew in mid-April, the PLAN’s current build-up has been less widely reported. But in a perhaps unintended gesture toward military transparency, many elements of the PLAN build-up can be monitored via the Chinese Internet in unprecedented detail. The ongoing PLAN build-up includes:
NAVAL AIR FORCES
In late 2002 or early 2003 the PLA signed a contract for its first batch of Russian Sukhoi Su-30MK2 and Su-30MK3 attack fighters for the PLAN. These will supplant the long obsolete Xian H-6 (Tupolev Tu-16) bombers and will give the PLAN a long range strike platform that can carry modern precision weapons and new supersonic anti-ship missiles. In an interview last November a Sukhoi official indicated the PLAN could purchase up to forty Su-30s. In addition, about eighty PLA Air Force Su-30MKKs may soon be available for naval strike missions. Recent reports also indicate that, with the help of Britain’s Rolls Royce, China has finally mastered the ability to produce an improved version of the Spey turbofan engine. This will enable greater production of Xian’s JH-7A, a more potent version of the JH-7 already in one PLAN unit near Shanghai. The JH-7A will carry at least two types of supersonic anti-ship missiles, a new indigenous model and the Russian Zvezda Kh-31.
PROJECT 093 NUCLEAR ATTACK SUB
The Pentagon expects the PLAN to launch its first second generation nuclear powered attack submarine around 2005. Several reports indicate the Project 093 will benefit greatly from Russian design, powerplant, combat system, sonar and weapons technology. The 093 will also form the basis for the new Project 094 nuclear powered ballistic missile submarine, expected in PLAN service around the end of the decade. U.S. estimates hold that the 093 will equate to the Russian 1980s vintage VICTOR III class nuclear sub. This would be a major improvement over existing PLAN Project 091 HAN subs, but still not as capable as late model U.S. nuclear attack subs. There remains an outside chance the PLAN could also purchase the very capable Russian AKULA nuclear attack sub, as India is doing.
KILO ATTACK SUB
In early 2002 the PLA signed a contract for eight new Russian KILO 636 diesel-electric powered attack subs by 2007, on top of four already in service. The new KILOs are expected to incorporate improvements in quieting, sonar, and weapons–which are to include the 288km range Novator CLUB-S anti-ship missile. India is the only other Asian state to have these potent weapons. They will make China’s KILOs among the quietest and clearly the best-armed subs in any East Asian navy.
“SONG” ATTACK SUB
Despite encountering problems with the prototype, the PLAN has now settled into series production of an improved version of the indigenous SONG class diesel-electric powered submarine. The SONG bears a resemblance to French sub designs and uses German diesel engines. It also incorporates better sonar and weapon systems than the Project 035 MING class conventional submarines. About five SONGs could now be complete, and perhaps more than ten, plus about twenty MINGs in the PLAN by decade’s end.
NO. 168 AIR DEFENSE DESTROYER
By the end of last summer the PLAN had launched two new general purpose destroyers with stealthy hull designs and, according to reports, Ukrainian turbine engines. This design marked a significant improvement over previous PLAN combat ships. By April this year it became apparent that the ships would carry new Russian weapons–the effective SA-N-12 anti-aircraft missile plus a long-range Russian search radar, and another radar similar to the Russian BAND STAND over-the-horizon targeting radar. The latter indicates that a new, long range anti-ship missile will be carried. These ships are basically comparable to Taiwan’s new U.S. KIDD class destroyers in size and capability, but much more stealthy.
NO. 170 “AEGIS” DESTROYER
On April 29 the PLAN launched destroyer No. 170, the first of two new destroyers that will incorporate a large phased-array radar similar to the U.S. AEGIS radar system. Using the same stealthy hull and engine configuration of the No. 168 class, this destroyer is armed with forty-eight new type vertical-launched anti-aircraft missiles of either Russian or Chinese origin. As such they will be the first dedicated long range air defense ships for the PLAN. The radar configuration offers at least the potential that this class of destroyer may eventually perform anti-missile missions. This is a capability that Taiwan has sought to obtain via U.S. AEGIS destroyers.
SOVREMENNY 2 DESTROYER
In early 2002 the PLAN also ordered an additional two SOVREMENNY class destroyers. While this contract has also been mired in controversy between Russian shipyards, it is expected that the ships will be delivered. Russian reports indicate they will be armed with more powerful supersonic anti-ship missiles, either the 300km range NPO Mashinostroenie YAKHONT or a new 200km range version of the Raduga MOSKIT. An AEGIS radar system with appropriate missiles is the only sure way to counter these missiles.
“TYPE 054” STEALTH FRIGATE
Early this year Chinese Internet sources revealed a model of a new stealthy frigate that bore a striking resemblance to Taiwan’s French-built LAFAYETTE stealth frigates. Referred to by some as the Type 054 frigate, series production is now underway, with the first to be launched later this year. The frigates are expected to offer improved performance over the current JIANGWEI class frigates.
NO. 886 REPLENISHMENT SHIP
After a long hiatus, the PLAN launched a new replenishment ship earlier this year. While this served only to increase the number of such PLAN ships from three to four, it also demonstrated the PLA’s ability to produce these ships, which are necessary to support long term or distant operations.
In addition, Chinese Internet sources indicate that many older PLAN destroyers and frigates are receiving weapon and sensor upgrades. Popular weapon upgrades include new 100mm automatic main guns and C-802 anti-ship missiles. Though a modest improvement, they will make naval vessels more useful for blockade missions in the Taiwan Strait. The PLAN does not yet appear to be ready to build aircraft carriers. Carrier-related research and technology acquisition continue as they have since the 1980s, but the PLAN does not yet appear to have the resources for carrier acquisition. But when a carrier is finally acquired, the ships built during the 2001-2005 period could form the basis for its escort group.
To be sure, the PLAN also faces an even greater challenge in training crews and developing doctrine and tactics for its new ships and submarines. This may turn out to be the PLAN’s main task for the next five year plan, though it is safe to expect that the PLA will continue its build-up of more capable combat ships.
For Washington, Taipei and Tokyo, all of whom depend heavily on maritime security, the PLA’s naval build-up serves to underscore Beijing’s potential to challenge their security interests. It clearly increases the pressure on Washington and Taipei to place more emphasis on naval modernization programs that Taiwan can afford and acquire quickly. Otherwise, an accelerating military imbalance across the Strait should cause Beijing to conclude that it can attempt military solutions to “recover” Taiwan.
Richard D. Fisher, Jr. is a senior fellow with the Jamestown Foundation and the managing editor of China Brief.
http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=19&issue_id=680&article_id=4757
Indian navy to have two aircraft carriers by 2011
http://english.people.com.cn/200403/09/eng20040309_136988.shtml
Originally posted by jkw
🙂 😀
RLV SSTO
LRV Specifications
Crew 4
Weapons 4 nuclear missiles
Mission Length 6 weeks
Dimensions
Diameter 40 ft.
Center 90 in.
Edges 6 in.
Wing 1548 sq. ft.
Weights
Launch 45,000 lb.
Landing 33,395 lb.
Empty 17,042 lb.
Engines
Booster nuclear thermal rockets NTR
NTR Engine 4/6
Main Hypergolic/Nuclear
Capsule Solid fuel
Electric Power 7 kw (thermal nuclear)
Designer North American Aviation
http://me.eng.sunysb.edu/~mec290/nerva/
http://www.marsinstitute.info/rd/faculty/dportree/rtr/at12.html