ErezLet me guess.. And you are the one who knows it all better than anyone else.. :p
What about teaching us all a bit?
Of course he known better than you, after all, he’s one of us, the Learned Elders of Zion :p
ErezBush Vs Kerry. Money Politics. By supporting ur man and effectively lobbying to get things done. Dont tell me tht doesnt happen as the world around is not so naive to beleive it.
Ah… no.
Did Israel finance Bush’s campaign?
Sure lobbying exists, but what makes the Israeli lobbying different than, say, the British lobbying? what makes it, in your mind, being able to effectively control the US?
ErezOfcourse a nation of 6 million is not capable to acheive it so u have other super powers to do ur dirty work for u. Iraq, Iran, Syria i wonder who is next. Before questioning the sanity of other do look at your self to find clues of what wrong with your thinking. Nywayz i guess let time decide which one was right.
And what is wrong with my thinking?
It’s people like you whose thinking is wrong. You admit that we can’t control these countries ourself, but we CAN control the world’s most powerful nations and make them do our will? How crazy does one has to get in order to think like that?
ErezWell as far as topics go, this has to be the least relevant I have read on a Aviation Forum. But to say my piece, to justify a action becausea people who sharedthe same religion lived there thousands of years agon is just palin daft. If we follow this logically well everyboby in the USA has to return to eurooe etc. 3/4 of the population of South America have to do the same. Many in Egypt have to return to Greece and Macedonia. The ethnic Chinese have to leave Malaysia, Singapore etc and Britain is returned to the celts or rather the Scots and Irish.
Isreal like amny other counties in Europe, africa the middle east and so on is a false creation. It does however exist and therefore now has a right to self determination as does Iran, Bosnia, South Africa, Germany etc. The Palestinians like the Kurds and other unfortunately do not have a nation any more. Isreal should return all lands taken in 1967 as these are ‘occupied and Isreal has no claim on them. Jerusalem is claimed by so many that no one nation should lay claim to it. No one in this troubled area is blameless. What should be done is for all nation to withdraw funding and support to all sides and simply see who is left standing. If the parties won’t talk or listen then leave them to it. How many people have died around the world because these people cannot live together? Enough is enough. Give Iran nukes to counter Israel and see what happens, If Israel is faced with odds of 20 to 1 maybe it will see sence ans decide to talk. If the Palestinians are threatens with eradication if they continue their war of terror/jihad will they see sence. This has gone on for far to long.
This thread is indeen off topic, but if you bother to reply to it, you better at least read it carefully.
As shown, we not only share the religion of the ancient Israelites, we are in fact them, or at least their very close descentands.
Sure, give Iran nukes. Israel is the first of their list, but definately not the last. So when the Shihab-4s will start flying over your home, tell me if it was the right move.
Well i certainly agree with u on that dear. Iran with nukes is one single biggest challenge for Israels ambitions of a greater Israel. So far they have managed to keep the hope alive thanks to some super powers who like to have a bargaining chip to deal with the Oil rich middle east countries. Its about time to talk some sense else we all heading for a big stand off where i guess everything will go BOOM.
Everything doesn’t have to ‘go BOOM’. I wouldn’t like to see my home and country ‘going BOOM’.
Israel (allegedly) keeps nuclear weapons only to counterbalance the numeric superiority of its enemies (and it has planty of those), not to create a “Greater Israel”, which a term used as propaganda by the world’s worst Anti-Israelis.
Use your mind, if you still have one, and think. As Jews in Israel, we are a nation of 6 millions. We can’t control a single foreign people. We tried, and see what happened. So do you really think that Israel can possibly control the entire Arab world, or even a small part of it?
It’s people like you, who buy every single populist BS about Israel that really pis$ me off.
ErezGood points.. I only can add that if both sides were willing to make real compromises, solution would always be at hand.. I only can wish for you that you will find peace one day.
Good Luck, Erez.. Thanks for a nice discussion. It helped me to see the problem from both sides..
It was my pleasure.
ErezI will be absolutely honest here, don’t take that personally, please.
What I have ssen here must be an example of the most absurd logic I have ever heard. Taking excerpts from Bible as historical proofs about God-given rights to claim land is hilarious, especially since we all know how Bible has been intensively reworked, retranslated and rewritten at free will by various groups during the most of the time of its existence. The Old Testament surely has its religious and moral value but is absolutely unsuitable for lessons in history.
Even worse, to take the same arguments deep into 20th century and to chase off original inhabitants off the homes according to some ridiculous ancient 2000 year old rules – I can’t believe my eyes anybody today is still able to support such idea.
If I were a Palestinian whose parents were kicked off back in 1948 according to these rules, my blood would probably boil from rage about such stupidity, so much is clear. Thanks God this topic does not really touch me..
Again, Erez, nothing personal.. You definitely are one kind of intelligent guy and have my sympathies as a person, regardless nationality, religion or whatever else.. I am also sorry for not providing any kind of solution to this problem but I fear there is not any on a rather long term.
I agree that the Bible’s credibility as an historical document is limited, but not entirely limited.
That’s why I’ve displayed other evidences, such as genetic evidences, that support the idea that modern day Jews got their ancestors in the Middle East, and therefore the ancient Israelites.
These ancient Israelites also left behind important physical archeological evidences, not just written evidences, that show that they once settled the land.
Basically, I don’t really care about the theological stuff in the Bible, but all evidence suggests that Jewish kingdoms existed in this land. Judea, the second of which, was destroyed by the world’s then most powerful empire, and its people exiled, through force.
Now, their descendants are still alive, and they wanted to return to their ancestors’ land. I see nothing wrong with the fact that the Jewish nation wanted to rebuild its statehood in its historical homeland.
So, nothing religious here, no promises by God. Just history. And an ancient one in this case.
The reality on ground is that there is another people who claims this land. Fine. I acknowldge their right for it, if they recognize mine, and then, and only then, we could start discussing about territorial concessions.
ErezYour second sentence is an indirect contradiction of the first. If there is enough historical evidence about people of Canaan continuing to live in the region even after the return of the Israelites, how can you possibly know that none of those people survived to this day? The first sentence is only true if the Canaanias were completely eradicated.
So now, which sentence is valid?
Both, see what I wrote to SOC…
ErezAre you saying that they were all killed?
So did they take away the land by force, or just move in next to the Canaanites?
No, what I said was that religion alone does not give anyone an automatic right to their own nation.
They weren’t all killed, but they vanished from history as nations, like many other nations in many different places.
The Israelites entered the land by force (again, the biblical story tells that their ancestors, Jacob and his 12 sons, came to Egypt from Canaan, so you might say ‘retake’ instead of ‘take’), waging war against some of its inhabitants, but eventually could not possibly kill all of them, or even most of them, so they lived next to them.
By the way, some of these nations, like the Philistines (from whom the name Palestine originates) weren’t local at all. The Philistines were in fact ancient Greek, with absolutely no local ancestors.
I didn’t say that say that religion gives an automatic right for a nation, but common ancestors and national background does.
ErezErez,
I dont mean to pick up a fight or take part in this debate – there is nothing new in it – but I am somehow surprised by your above statement. I was, on the contrary, under the impression that recent history works in Israel tended to show that the role of jewish groups in the departure of countless of Arabs in 1948 had been underplayed, and that there was now a greater recognition of Israel responsability.
Benny Morris is probably the best known israeli historian arguing in this sense, although not the only one (i.e. B. Morris is probably the most famous of those historians since he now argues that the ethnic cleansing should have been more thorough so that today Israel would not have the “problem” they face with the Israeli arab population).
Could you therefore be so kind as to mention (name of book, historian) that you refer to??
Well, Post-Modernist history is as rife in Israel just as the rest of the West. While this is an important tool for self criticism, it isn’t free of prejudice and politics.
One of the recent history books I’ve read that deals in part with this subject is called “Modern Times”, but it’s Hebrew only.
As for the Jewish role in the Palestinian refugee problem, we certainly didn’t complain about the leaving of Arabs. Haim Weizman, the first Israeli president, even called it “a great miracle”. But that Israeli role was mostly just that passive. In most of the places, unarmed civilian population was not forced out its homes.
That old angle really doesn’t fly, not one bit. You forget that, allegedly, when the Israelites left Egypt and came to Israel, they had to boot out the inhabitants to claim the land. So the claim on the land is most assuredly NOT yours, but rather it resides in the hands of the original group of people you threw out of Israel.
You are forgetting a number of things, which clearly indicate your lack of knowledge is this matter.
1) None of these people survived to this day, except for the Jewish people which was sovereign there for more time than the USA is sovereign in North America.
2) Even after the entering of the Israelites to Israel (btw, they were allegedely in Egypt for just 400 years, and they came from Israel, so in that sense, it’s REentering) the people of Canaan continued to live in it, and there are numerous historical/archeological evidences for that.
WRONG. Religion does NOT in any way give you an automatic right to your own nation.
Oh great, now you say that the Jewish people have no common ancestors?
Judaism is a religion. Jews are a nation. This has been disputed only in the past couple of decades, and has been proven once again using historical and scientifical methods:
“Although the historical record itself is very limited, there is a consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East. When they arrived in northern France and the Rhineland sometime around 800-1000 CE, the Ashkenazi Jews brought with them both Rabbinic Judaism and the Babylonian Talmudic culture that underlies it. The Yiddish language, once spoken by the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jewry, is heavily influenced by Hebrew and Aramaic, but not by Greek or Latin. Recent research in human genetics has also demonstrated that a significant component of Ashkenazi ancestry is Middle Eastern.”
A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al[8] found that the Y chromosome of most Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews was of Middle Eastern origin, containing mutations that are also common among Palestinians and other Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced primarily to the Middle East.
The first research on Ashkenazi maternal ancestry was less conclusive. A 2002 study by Goldstein et al[9] found that “the women’s origins cannot be genetically determined”, but that “his own speculation” was that “most Jewish communities were formed by unions between Jewish men and local women.”
More recent research indicates that a significant portion of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry is also of Middle Eastern origin. A 2006 study by Behar et al[10], based on haplotype analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), suggested that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women. These four “founder lineages” were “likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool” originating in the Near East in the first and second centuries CE. According to the authors, “The observed global pattern of distribution renders very unlikely the possibility that the four aforementioned founder lineages entered the Ashkenazi mtDNA pool via gene flow from a European host population.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
And by the way, this mostly concerns Ashkenazi Jews (me included). Most of the rest are considered even closer to the original Israelites.
My apologies..
Accepted 😉
ErezYou gotta be on drugs… Does it mean Italians can claim Germany, Northern Libya and Greece now because 2000 years ago it was Roman Empire?
First of all, I don’t appreciate such comments.
Secondly, no, they can’t. We don’t claim this land because it was once under our imperial rule, we claim it because it’s our only native land, a land which we were exiled from. The Jewish people has the right for self determination on a national basis just like any other.
Imagine me crawling into your house and throwing you out. You immediately call police, they roar to your house with sirens and then I open fire fromautomatic rifle I got with me. Do you call it a defensive resistance and a fair fight?
You, too, would not want to stay in the middle of the battle zone, would you?
“Even under the bloody attacks which we suffer for months, we call the people of the Arab nation, the inhabitants of the State of Israel, to maintain peace and take part in the building of the country on the basis of a full, equal citizenship and on the basis of a stuitable representation in all of its institutions”
This is an excerpt from the Israeli decleration of independence. Do you imagine any other country calling its enemies, during war, to join them and be granted full citizenship?
And indeed, all the Arabs who chose to stay were granted Israeli citizenship. I’ve never seen in my life an example of a country which gives full citizenship to the people who fought them just months before. These are the 20% of the Israeli population that you talked about.
Most of the Arabs had a choice. I’m not saying that all of them. $hit happens during wars. Deir Yassin, for example, was unacceptable. And even then, a large part of the Arab population that left did so only after having an armed struggle with the IDF. Where the Israeli forces didn’t meet resistance, the Arab villages were left untouched. In some places, the Arab population remained mostly because of a request by their Jewish neighbors. Where the Israeli forces met resistance, the civilian population usually left after their armed struggle was lost.
ErezHmm, that was almost nothing. You moved in in hundred thousands, robbed everything you have found.. Really peaceful.
You say move in, I say return. Understand the difference?
The Jewish Yishuv in mandatory Palestine/Land of Israel has excepted all of the UN resolutions regarding to the territorial partition of the land. The Zionist leadership even agreed for a small self ruled ghetto from “Hadera to Gedera” on the coast, which is the center of Jewish population in the land even today. The partition plan accepted on the 29th of November, 1947 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/6/6b/PartitionPlan1947.PNG) in the UN was everything the Jewish leadership claimed when they declared the establishment of a Jewish state. Everything else, which btw isn’t all that much land, was gained during our Independence War, in 1948 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/7/79/ILmap.png), undoubtably a defensive war which we won fairly.
Recent historic studies conclude that the majority of the Arab population which left the Israeli territories did so of their own free will, truly believing that the Jewish state will be destroyed in a matter of weeks, and were encouraged to do so by the region’s Arab leaders. Quite frankly, looking at the odds Israel had to survive, if I were a Palestinian back then, I would have listened and would leave, but that’s just me.
If the Arabs had accepted the 29/11/49 partition plan, most of them would have left the Israeli territories anyway, just like the Jewish people that lived in what was supposed to be their land.
And speaking of Jews who lived in their land, what about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who lived in the Middle East and North Africa, who had to flee from their own countries due to Arab persection? Why does nobody mentions them when speaking about refugees?
We of course recieved them and integrated them into our society, unlike the Palestinians in the refugee camps all over the Levant, but it doesn’t make their story less tragic then the Palestinian one.
Erez1. Shelling time doesn’t fit with the injury time.
2. All the shells was fired from the same battery and all of the other shells landed more than 250 meters away from the place.
3. Hamas militants came to the place 1 minute after the ” boom ” and collected ALL pieces from whatever left from the shell.
4. The Palestinian hospital analyzed the bodies of the palestinians BEFORE they sent them to Israeli hospital and took all the splinters left from the shells from them, and gave the wounded people to Israel without the proofs of the shells.
5. Hamas is now refusing to give Israel the pieces left from the shells.After Pallywood And Muhamad Al Durah frauds, and I have no doubt it is not even 5% from their lies, doing 1+1 is very very simple.
What are you trying to say? you say that the shells landed 250 meters away, and then that the Palestinian hospial took the splinters of the shells out of their bodies?
By the way, I do believe that this incident wasn’t a result of Israeli fire. An exploded shell leaves parts of it behind. If it was an Israeli shell, the Palestinians would have immediately showed its remains.
But anyway, I leave the final conclusions to the investigators.
ErezIf I want to go to the beach over there, how deep should I dig my trench, so I have something to dive into when IDF arty upsets my beach party?
Lucky you don’t need to worry about the IDF, but from your own goverment placing mines on ” your ” beach, cause this is what killed them, not the IDF’s shells.
Both of these opinions are totally irrelavent until the end of the investigation regarding this terrible incident.
ErezGoogle Earth just completed a serious update of their data. There is a TON of new high-resolution imagery in there. I’ve already seen the Kuznetsov, Varyag, Minsk, J-10s, Dingxin, a KJ-2000, the Y-8 Balance Beam, more S-300P sites…..looks like I found how I’m going to waste this weekend 😀
Looks like they arranged even high res pics of Israel. I can see my house 😮 😀
ErezSo only threads where everyone agrees with everyone are considered as good? How do you want to broaden your horizon if you never talk to people with different opinion?
There is one thing you can learn here.. And that is how the whole world sees you.
Nope, there is a lot of room for disagreement, especially on these subjects, but the point is that this is not the place for these discussions.
I know how the world sees us and it pains me a lot. I’m talking to foreigners as much as possible, whether online or in real life, and trying to explain, learn and listen to others, but again, this is not the place.
You know that I’m always open for (non aviation related) discussions about Israel, but only privately or in the GD forum.
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