Threads like this only lower this forum’s level of discussions, and if anything they should go to the GD forum.
Also, I’ve been in this scene before, and what I can tell you all is that these threads are always no good. I almost never found myself learning anything new from them, or teaching someone alse.
So please, go do it somewhere alse.
Elta got its own tech of Airborne radars using AESA.
why would they need access to a Swedish one?
Because it’s probably going to be better.
I completely lost you here.
Are you saying Elta of Israel doesn’t have the AESA technology?
cause I really didn’t catched you here.
No, he meant that Israel doesn’t have access to the advanced Swedish-American AESA tech. For now, anyway.
The RADAR is the main problem with the whole deal…
We want the ELTA radar to replace the American radar, cheapest, and for now, the Elta radar performance are better.2. EW Systems is the second biggest thing Israel want to change, It is very important for us to put our own EW systems.
I have no doubt whatsovever one of the major deals is Israel to install Elisra’s EW systems, that was said to be the most advanced in the world ( the one installed on the AH-64D ).3. Mission computer is not a real important thing like Radar, but Elbit placed their new specially desgined Mission computer for the Israeli AH-64D ( Helicom ), that help the pilot to run the Helicopter much better.
4. Of COURSE! ELTA’s DataLink like the EL/K-1891 is a must have for any Israeli aerial asset to be complete with the IDF sattelite network!
5. Elbit’s as you said
Most of Israel’s missiles are already fit to the places they need to mount to,
Python series can be mounted to AIM-9 places without any modifications, and I’m sure they doesn’t really care about external things like missiles and bombs
I believe you are confusing between the F-35 and the F-16I. The EL/M-2052 is still under development, and I don’t believe it will be better than the APG-81.
As for weapons integration – the good ole days of just sticking a missile to a plane are over. Today every weapon you want to integrate needs its own software integrated in the plane in order to function. Without the Americans giving Israel the source codes of the plane, which seems close to impossible, no Israeli weapon could be used on the JSF.
1) Israel is developing its own AESA radar, so replacing the radar is an option in theory, but I doubt if the APG-81 won’t be preferred.
2) EW gear is certainly an issue.
3) Don’t think so, but again, possible in theory.
4) Probably not.
5) The HMS is already Israeli (Elbit).
6,7,8) That’s probably the main concern. Israel wants the Pythons, Derby, Spice and other equipment to be integrated to the F-35.
When is the IDF tentativly looking to induct the f-35 (if at all)? I beleive that it should be around 2012-2016 .
I heard 2012…
is certainly not a serious threat. But that doesn’t mean you might not want to consider THAAD or an S-300V just in case…
So I understand that even you, SOC, who seemed to be so convinced that Iran’s threats are nothing more than propaganda, believes that maybe, just maybe, there is a small chance that Iran is serious.
Well, guess what – Israel can’t risk it. Not even if the risk would have been just 10%.
But anyway, this is not an Iranian thread, so we shouldn’t go there.
Personally I think that as long as our potential enemies (unfortunately, including Egypt) don’t have stealth aircraft, having a big fleet of F-16s Block 52+, a squadron of today’s best bombtruck and a lot of other second line quality interecptors and fighter bombers, it’s more than enough for now, and I can’t see a need for the F-35 in Israel anytime before 2020, but even then probably only because much of the F-16 fleet would have to be retired.
What you just said doesn’t make any sense.
The Americans doesn’t want us to ” suck ” at battle.
Not letting us place our own systems because they don’t want us to do a better use with them doesn’t make any sense.
there is 1 good reason for the US to disallow us to put israeli systems.They know that If they wll agree, we have now few years to start and develop the best systems we can, to put on this new fighter, and those systems will be competition to their’s.
I didn’t said ALL israel’s Avionics systems are better than the US’s! don’t get me wrong!
I said, and perfectly explained myself, that Israel make SPECIFIC systems, exacly for what you said – our special needs.
But there is no such thing as ” Special needs “, using this combanation is other word for ” Our’s better, and we want that, and not yours “, thats simple as that.
Israel make specific systems for our assest, while the US is making thousands of systems for all kind of stuff, which some of them they doesn’t even use.When you put alot of work on a small number of projects, you get a more quality project.
When you put small number of work on each project, while having thousands of them, you get less quality, thats how it works.Good example – the F-16I Radar,
we wanted to put our own, which in any way you look at it, every detail in the Elta radar was better than the AGP-68 we finally have on our F-16I, its all because of competition, and money.good example for Israel’s success – India, and specially the SU-30MKI, and the missiles program we have with them.
You can take the AH-64D of Israel, and the AH-64D of the US Army, and see how different they are, and how much the Israeli version is better.
The Americans don’t really care how well we’ll do in battle – what they want is to sell more of their systems and earn more money – that’s why this problem exists.
While the homegrown Israeli systems might turn out better than the original American systems, and might have some export potential, you can count on the Americans to make sure that we won’t be able to upgrade other countries’ F-35s.
Your belief that the less you produce the better the product is is not always true. A better system is a better system, and it doesn’t matter if you produce a 100 of a 1000 pieces of it. A better system is created by the combination of brain and money. The US got more brains than us, many of them are better that our’s, and certainly have much, much more money than we do. This usually creates better systems.
Israel’s secret isn’t creating better systems – it’s about creating systems which are better for us. “Special needs” do exist – and it’s not a new invention. For example, after operating the Mirage IIICJ, Israel decided that it wants its own special version of the plane, the Mirage V. Because the weather in the Middle East is usually clear, Israel decided to remove the Mirage III’s radar, and put extra fuel in the plane instead. This is just one example for special needs. But while that kind of plane might be better for Israel, it would be worse than the Mirage III for almost all of the other customers of the Mirage.
Today for example, some of the countries around us use American made systems. If an Israeli F-35 will ever meet an Egyptian F-35 during a dogfight, and they’ll both have the same EW systems, for example, it will be much harder for any of the pilots to shoot the other guy down. But if the Israeli plane will have other EW systems, he’ll have an advantage – not only since the Israeli systems could be better, they’ll just be different, and the other pilot won’t know exactly how they work.
Dude its a fact, its not something you can argue on.
Look on Israeli AH-64D and on US’s.
its like comparing 2 whole different Heli’s
4X-IL – First of all, everything is arguable…
I’m an Israeli just like you, and while I agree that most of the systems we put on our aircraft are better suited to our airforce’s needs, it doesn’t always says that every avionic system we produce is better than its American/European counterpart. Every airforce has its own needs and solutions for them.
The problem with the fact that the Americans aren’t letting us “Israelize” the F-35 is not because the Israeli systems are necessarily better, it’s because these systems will allow us to use the most out of the plane’s platform in our own special enviorment of combat.
Sorry Erez, but I have to say, that camo paintjob is terrible! Try it in F-16I camo, and you have a deal.
😀 That camo is in fact the F-16 camo, adapted to the Eurofighter’s figure.
The F-16I’s colours might be a bit different though, it’s hard to be accurate with colours.
Personally I prefer seeing this happens in reality:
Is that pic after a ferry flight from the US? still has US insignia….
Yep. This is one of the first two F-16Is that arrived to Israel. This pictures was taken in Ramon AFB in the Negev, I believe the date was 19/02/04.
The plane in the background is not a Phantom, it’s A RJAF Casa C-101 light attack aircraft, so Iran is very un probable.
You’re right, that intake is certainly of a C-101. I should have paid more attention to the Jordanian insignia…
Hi another Migs photo
It seems that this MiG-29 picture was taken in Iran. Note the F-4 behind it.
Whilst fairly new on the Cheetah D, the idea is hardly new since it has been on the Cheetah C from the begining! :diablo:
Indeed. It also exists on the Kfir CE (wonder why :rolleyes: ) and some Kfir C7s, but first time I see it on a Kfir/Cheetah/Mirage two seater.