Erezthirsty CHED and TP dak
Did you notice the new single piece windshield on that Cheetah? :dev2:
Erez“Justify my line of thinking” :confused:
You speak (well, write 🙂 ) as if I’m making excuses. Not everything is presently directly connected to the Palestine-Israel issue, but it sure can be traced back to it.
I do know that prior to the forced setting up of the Israeli state that the Brits (as usual, the British Empire creates chaos where it treads 😉 ) promised both sides independant lands… problem being they would need to build two floors to the region as they were on top of each other. But, before the Zionist movement gained strength, there was generally peace in the area between Muslim and Jew.
[Well, if you wanted to really go back it would extend right back to the invasion of Spain and France by the Islamic Ottoman empire, which was around 700 AD]
The UN resolution by which Israel was created also called for the creation of a Palestinian nation. We took the opportunity and declared independence, the Arabs didn’t. The devision was not very different than today’s 1967 borders.
Most of the Jews in the 1930s lived either in Europe or the US (around 85% I believe). After the holocaust, around 70% of the world’s Jews were still from the European Jewry. Those that lived in the lands of Islam generally enjoyed equality under the rule of the local leader. In 1948 and in the later years, most of them immigrated to Israel, because they were severely persecuted in their countries. It wasn’t the Zionist movement that created the tensions between the Jews and the Arabs. The Zionist movement’s goal was to create a homeland for the Jews. This goal was recognized by the world and has been materializing in Palestine for 50 years before Israel’s decleration of independence. Many of the Arabs recognized this goal too. Zionist leaders met some of the Arab world’s most important leaders.
Once, when a group of Jewish pioneers bought some lands in order to create a new settlement, they wanted to pay the leader of the local tribe. The Sheikh refused, and asked for much less. When asked why, he replied that he only asks for a “guarding fee”, since he and his ancestors were guarding the place for 2000 years for the Jews.
Don’t get fooled by the media. Arabs and Jews generally manage with eachother, even today. The ones inciting their people to hatred are their leaders.
ErezAww, its soo coincidental that http://memri.org/israel.html gives a 404 Not Found…
Even weirder that its the only one not found…
And downright fishy when one of its supposedly supportive quotes says “I am full of admiration for the work MEMRI has done … in its dedicated exposure of Arab antisemitism.”
Now, the site may not be biased, I may have caught it on a bad day when the Israeli page was down to genuine technical reasons… but…
Not one story on oil trade, not one story on domestic issues, not one story on global commerce…
Go find a neutral source and get back to me. :rolleyes:
You did catch it on a bad day. Rest assured, the Israel page usually works.
Now, you can question every source all you like. That doesn’t change the fact that Memri is a respected media research institute, and you should first look at their other sections until the Israel page will be back. Memri brings you the words and videos of the Middle Eastern Media in all aspects, whether politically, socially or economically.
ErezIt might depend on whether you start treating the palestinians with a grain of respect I suppose.
And yet more scaremongering…
1) Bringing up the Palestinian issue won’t help you justifing your line of thinking. It’s time you’ll start to accept the fact that not everything about Israel has to be connected to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, which itself is a complicated issue that you should learn more about before starting to comment about.
2) Even when it seemed that peace was just around the corner, around 1995, Iran completely refused to talk to Israel, let alone recognizing it.
And jjshep brought up Memri here. You should have a look at it before trying so hard to support the Iranians:
http://www.memri.org/iran.html
I liked this one particulary:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=SP110106
And this one:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=SP105305
Happy Passover! 😀
ErezYou know what, your (and your government as well) are just scaremongering to avoid having to talk to/work with/face Iran on an level playing field.
Right now you can dictate to with the threat of ‘the bomb’, but if they get one you cannot.
You’re a fine piece of work you know? :rolleyes:
Tell me, which country doesn’t recognize the other? Israel doesn’t recognize Iran, or Iran doesn’t recognize Israel?
Just use your mind. Can we talk to a nation that says we have no right to exist? can they talk to us?
Erezwell comunism can hardly be a success can it? I didnt see alot of Russians bothered about it and marching in the street for the return of communism when it all borked up for them. Communism just isnt very popular with the people who live under it it would appear – maybe im tottally ignorant of the millions living in bliss under a red goverment. Be interesting to find out really.
Pure, uncorrupted communism is just one of those noble ideas that simply contradict the human nature. Equality for all in such an utopia sounds much better to me than wild capitalism. But then again, it’s impractical.
ErezThese are exactly arguments what was pronounced during cold war by the West against USSR (bloody communist what eat childrens for lunch and dont care about own ppls), and these arguments almost lead to all-earth nuclear war. As its later turned out, USSR goverment wasnt “lunatic, ultra orthodox, non-democratically elected leaders” any more than any other West goverment by that time. Dont make that mistake again.
The Russians (or should we say, Soviets) were working for the interest of the USSR – money, politics and military power.
The Iranians are working the way they do because they think that’s what their god wants. See the difference there?
Also, the Cold War, propaganda and fear aside, was very calculated.
One move of the Soviets that the American saw, the President immediately calls his colleague in Moscow and tells them to withdraw or to risk themself in a direct conflict between the US and the USSR – otherwise known as ‘the end of the world as we know it’. The Soviet leaders would then withdraw their forces, sooner or later, and peace would be maintained.
Iran and Israel have no such systems. A similiar situation between the two can easily become a full nuclear war. The fact that the Iranians got nothing to lose and believe they are protected by Allah doesn’t make it any better.
ErezSure.. But.. how many extreme Muslims are in the leadership? I will answer you.. None. These are Harvard and Yale-educated businessmen, not street kids raised and brainwashed in terrorist camps. How can someone who has absolutely no interest in real things in life like economy and money and wealth become a high-rank in the state that makes zillions of winnings from oil? That is a bloody nonsense and you know it..
The fact is that Iran is a theocracy. The Iranian politicians might be educated, but they are too very religious. But anyway, the people who really control the country are the leaders of the Islamic Revolution appointed for life by Assembly of Experts, aka Mullahs&Ayatollahs Co.
The only thing that the people of Iran are officially electing is their president, but the fact is that he is first elected by the leaders of the Islamic Revolution, which then eliminates every opposition he has and makes the elections meaningless.
But Shah was what you would expect from an Iranian leader.. Educated, sensible, western-oriented, diplomatic.. The islamic revolution clearly showed that Iranians don’t really want a ruler like that. They are not quite ready for this, especially the poor.
Sure, the Shah was a good ally for the West and a close friend of Israel, but all in all he was a tyrant for his people.
Oh come on, nobody kills for agriculture today. That was middle age. Why would a 1.65mil sq km Iran be interested in agriculture of 0,02mil sq km Israel? They probably raise cotton on 10 times area of Israel.. 😉
That’s why I said that the agricultural part was in the past. The Iranians aren’t interested in the Israeli territory and agriculture, they want to destroy them.
Thanks, I would indeed love to come one day. I got a friend there and after what she has been tellin me, I just must see a country where people are carrying M16s on the streets. 😉
Hmm, again, an old stigma that Israel has. Yes, you can see armed men and women in the streets, but most of the time they are either soldiers or police, and that is a reality we were forced into.
But again, it isn’t as common as you might think. Maybe it’s also just more unusual for most people from other countries to see weapons in the streets…
I simply cannot imagine a Jew working for Arab, sorry 😉
And a Persian? 😀
ErezHow does Israeli military cooperation with China represent US interests. And there are certainly no Israeli intelligence agents in the US, right?
The military cooperation between Israel and China started because of the US. Back in that time China was friendly with the US, but you couldn’t directly sell them serious military hardware and assist them technologically, both because they were ‘commies’ and because the Russians would have been pissed off. So what could Uncle Sam do? it sent Israel to China instead. We upgraded their tanks and sold them Python-3s because that was what the American administration at that time wanted.
So yeah, the military cooperation between Israel and China got a bit tighter, and against the US’s will in some cases, but generally speaking, Israel alwayed represented the American interests in the Middle East.
And I do believe that there are Israeli spies in the US, as there are American spies in Israel. There’s nothing wrong with that.
You got spies in England, your most powerful and commited ally, and they got all sorts of James Bonds in the US as well. It’s perfectly normal.
But that ally gives us nothing in that environment. We can’t base out of there, it’d infuriate Arab allies. Plus it’s just not convenient anyway. The best solution in this region is to get in good with the people who actually control the oil.
But it gives you a possible base of operation in case the Arab kind of your allies will fail you, and that is always a possiblity.
And even then, the people who control the oil are almost always unreliable tyrants – in other words, not exactly the kind of allies you’ll want to have.
If we can’t act against nations which don’t share our values, we shouldn’t automatically be expected to support those that do.
You can’t act against nations who don’t share your values, and you shouldn’t, unless they threaten your way of life and safety. So while you can keep Cuba right next to Florida, you might not be able to have a nuclear Iran in the Middle East, because it might be a security risk.
Ever heard of NMD? Fort Greeley?
Yeah, I’ve also heard about the Arrow. And even though it’s a great system, in a nuclear war one mistake in its operation and the game is over. And we all know that technology tends to fail when most needed.
ErezI’m not preaching total isolationism. However, why should Israel be considered a friend or ally? What have they done for us?
You know the American policies in the Cold War much better than I do. There’s no need for me to tell you the value Israel had for the US as a stronghold of democracy, freedom and capitalism in the Middle East.
But that was the CW.
So what value does Israel has for the US today?
Let’s start with the fact that the political reality in the world changes constantly. There’s no way to know who might be your friend and you ally and who might be your worst enemy in the world of tomorrow. I think the US has an obvious interest to keep itself allied with a country who for decades had proven itself to be representing the American interests in the region.
As long as the Middle East has a premier strategic value in the world’s economy, and there isn’t any other country undermining the position of America in the world (although as you probably understand that is likely to change within the 21st century), the US would like to have an ally which is located right next to the countries which control the stuff that powers the world.
And it ends with with what seem to be very simple things, such as similar values and way of life. If you have the power and ability to assist a nation with more or less the same head as your’s, then why not really?
Not the same situation. Iran isn’t on the same playing field as the US militarily. THey may not even be in the same area code, and that’s WITH nuclear weapons. We’d have nothing to worry about. They attack, we hit back at Tehran and Q’om. Enough said.
And what makes you so sure that their next step won’t be developing more serious inter-continental missiles, in order to destroy ‘the big satan’?
So yeah, they probably won’t be able to destroy the US, but they could wipe out Washington and New York, just for the heck of it. Are you willing to risk your major cities, or even only one of them, for giving the Iranians the ability, for the first time, to get nuclear weapons because you think that for now they can’t hurt you?
The business of America SHOULD be business. Unfortunately the Democratic Party still exists.
The mere fact that you are the world’s greatest economy makes you involved in other places in the world. History has shown time and time again that whenever the US practiced isolationism it eventually blew up in its face.
That’s the point: we should stop being the world’s military leader.
Again, the whole point is that economy, politics and military were and are always connected to eachother.
And if Israel attacks Iran of it’s own volition, why should the US have any part in fixing the mess you’ve created?
It shouldn’t. We’re willing to risk ourselves with conventional retaliation attacks from Iran. We could take it. And the damange made would still be much smaller than giving Iran nukes.
Iran makes a lot of comments, sure. We made comments about going to war with Iraq. But we didn’t nuke Saddam, and there’s no proof that Isan will definitely nuke Israel either, should they acquire a nuclear warhead.
You didn’t nuke Saddam because he couldn’t nuke you back.
The’re no proof that the Messiah won’t come tomorrow and peace will be everywhere. In the end of the day, the question is eventually whether you believe it or not.
So why shouldn’t Iran have that same ability to dete rIsraeli nuclear weapon use?
Because Israel doesn’t threat Iran, while the opposite isn’t true. Israel only threatens nations who threaten it. Their problem is that they threaten us, so yeah, they should expect to be threatened.
It’s their option really. Don’t threaten us, we won’t threat you. We have history of 58 years living with all sorts of lunatics around us, and they know that when unprovoked, Israel pursuits peace.
ErezYou know what really drives my thought process? Two things. One, I am sick and tired of the rest of the world being completely asinine and critical of every last damn thing we do. If we go into a country, we shouldn’t have gone. If we don’t go, we should have. So fine. We’ll leave the sovereign nation of Iran alone to be the sovereign nation of Iran. They can do whatever they want, for once we won’t be sitting on the sidelines waiting to come in and beat the hell out of the perceived bad guy. Secondly, the concept of deterrence. It did keep complete idiots like Kennedy from slagging the world during the Cold War, you know, so there is precedence showing that even absolute morons don’t necessarily have to be the “end of the world”, so to speak. The answer is either a nuclear-free Middle East, or not. If it’s OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons, then it should be just fine for Iran to do so as well. Or does the principle of equality not matter here?
I’m not exactly encouraging anything. I’m just saying that for once I’m not going to stop him, or clean up the mess afterwards, unless it directly and obviously concerns me. The world wants us to keep our hands off of everything. Ok. You guys run this place for a while, and let’s see how it turns out.
Give me a reason why we should care about Iran wiping something off of the map that doesn’t have an effect on us?
Like I said, I’m not going to tell them to do it. I’m not going to suggest that they do it. But if they do it, you can be sure that I won’t be picking up the pieces or punishing them for having done it. Somebody else can play policeman for a change. I’m tired of it.
What you’re talking about is the growing movement of anti-Americanism which is getting stronger and stronger all over the world. But instead of knowing and recognizing your friends and allies, who share many of your values and ideals, you’re willing to give the green light to their enemies to develop the means to possibly destroy them. Do you think that the appeasement of power hungry leaders and nations could you make you safer?
France thought so in the eve of WWII. And oh my god, two years later the Germans were marching in the heart of Paris.
I know that the US of A has been the policeman of the world since 1945, and I’m sure that after 61 years some of you are tired of that. It’s definately not the first time the a large part of the American public would like the US to have an isolated foreign policy. Before the Wall Street Crash of 1929 one of your presidents said a sentance which you might find appealing: “The business of America is business”.
However, as the US grew to become the worlds most powerful nation, obviously it became more involved in the world’s matters, begining in Europe after the second World War. As long as the US is the economic and military leader of the world, it’s also its political leader. As a good analyst you should know that. And it might sound childlish, but you have to understand that with great power comes great responsiblity ( 😉 ).
Perhaps you don’t fully understand my opinion here. Personally I don’t think that the US has any good reason to fight with Iran. Who does? first of all Israel, then every other country within 4000km from Tehran. And indeed, Israel is likely to attack if the Western powers will reach a conclusion that Iranian nukes aren’t of their concern.
Never, and I repeat, never in history had Israel threatened any country, including its worst enemies, with nuclear weapons. Only in 1973, close to to the brink of desturction, the nuclear option was considered. I believe it stands to a prove that Israel, for 50 years of nuclear capablity, is a responsible country, that could be trusted with the weapon of Judgment Day.
On the other hand, Iran doesn’t currently has nuclear weapons, and even so declares that it wants to destroy another nation. So, do you think Israel and Iran are equal when it comes to the ability to hold this unbelievable power and responsibility?
About the nuclear weapons in the Middle East – what other ways do we have to ensure Israel’s existance right next to the huge, mostly hostile Arab space in the ME, other than keeping itself the option to bring catastrophe to those who wish to bring catastrophe over it?
Peace through nuclear deterrence is the only peace we can afford until the arrival of the true peace. Once you take the nuclear umbrella from Israel, the rain will soon to follow.
You’ve some face on you for saying that…
Then it appears that your logic is pretty similar to those of the terrorists-oops-freedom fighters. Even if Israel as a country and as a military power occupies another nation, and sometimes kills the people which it considers as a threat to its security (and might even kill innocent people in the process), it doesn’t come close of justifing the complete murder of of its civilian population. Does it?
That is an absolutely biased point of view. Why should anybody lose interest in money and wealth just because he is Muslim? BTW, why do you think that millionaires in the US or Europe care more about starving junkies in ghettoes of Los Angeles or Paris that Iranian elite does about their own poor?
Muslim? no. Extreme Muslim? certainly. And same goes with extremists in every side.
It is. Because it fits the needs of a common citizen who gave his vote for a system like this.
Oh really? or is it because the common Iranian citizen doesn’t a vote in Iranian Islamic ‘Republic’?
I never held anything against the Persians. I know for a fact that most of them, those who aren’t starving to death or unemployed, are quite sensible people. The problem is that they never held the sovereignty for their country. Now these are the Ayatollahs who took it from them, and before it was the Shah.
Agreed. Because that is where two alienated cultures encountered each other permanently. It is only by accident that it was exactly there. It could have been Myanmar or Mongolia, as well, if the history was aa bit different.
But history is history is history. None of us can change it, although some try. Sure, it wasn’t oil which brought all these conflicts over Israel (until 200 years ago it was considered a curse), but it certainly was its location in one of the world’s most important geopolitical junctions. But it was also the country’s obvious wealth. What wealth, you ask? well, its land, of course. Until recently most people in this region were working in agriculture, and this is one the best places for agriculture there are in the Middle East.
Now you are misinterpreting me. I never mentioned that you’d be riding camels. Finally, if I know terms like IAI or RAFAEL, then I probably am aware of certain technological level in Israel, don’t you think? I have also never said that a night in Negev cannot be beautiful.. I have stated that invading Israel is economically uninteresting and I am sticking to that. No gold, no diamonds, no crude, no gas, no uranium, that is what moves the world. And if I wanted to please my heart by looking at the sunset over Negev, I’d come as a tourist rather than with 150,000 soldiers.
First of all, the custom of hospitality exists in Israel just as in the rest of the ME, so you’re most certainly invited 😉
Israel as a land might not be rich in natural resources (btw, we do have gas, phosphates and some other stuff: (from the world factbook)timber, potash, copper ore, natural gas, phosphate rock, magnesium bromide, clays, sand) and not economically interesting, but Israel as a state, as you know, is rich in many other natural resources – mainly our population. That means that our economy is mostly technological, industrial and agricultural. Beside that, I agree with you that the land isn’t very economically interesting, unless the possible occuping force theoretically would have kept the current Israeli economy working.
BTW, oil was found in certain amounts in Israel just a couple of weeks ago, and geological surveys suggest that more oil should be found in Israel someday.
ErezAnd wouldnt Israel not retaliate? That with big nukes wherever they want in Iran..and some might fall out of Iran by ‘mistake’ as well.
Dont the Iranians know that? ‘Destroying Israel’ is for public consumption, and everyone seems to be using it for thier own ends.
Also this is more of a focus away from Israel’s Nukes supplied by Britons and French, no wonder they have no leverage in negotiations with Iran. and actually its Israel which is ‘wiping a nation off the map’. Thats real and is occuring, rest are just statements.
Israel would definately retaliate if attacked by Iran with nuclear weapons.
The problem is that people don’t seem to realize that this is NOT Cold War II. We don’t have two major superpowers here, who have no interest in destroying eachother. We have no ‘red phone’ between Jerusalem and Tehran as Moscow and Washington had. This is a different situation entirely. We’re not facing a responsible, strong and cold blooded leader, we are facing a lunatic, ultra orthodox, non-democratically elected leader. He could care less about the Palestinians, the Iranians and certainly the Jews, AKA ‘sons of pigs and apes’, and wouldn’t hesitate for a second when given the chance to execute the perverted word of Allah (perverted by crazy preachers, that is), and destroy the ‘cancer in the heart of the Muslim nation’, no matter the cost.
Nonsense. Would you ruin your running multi-billion dollar oil trade business for some religious bullsh!t? Other than that is Israel an absolutely uninteresting country with no resources, a possible invasion and occupation creates no positive economical effect, only brings problems and drawbacks. Who with a sane brain would want to risk troubles for such a small piece of arid dirt?
That same oil trade business is now at risk because of their moves towards nuclear weapons, even without having to attack Israel. They are more than willing to pay every sum of money in the world to destroy Israel. Money has absolutely no meaning at all for them. They keep it from their starving people, for god sake.
That same religious BS is the guidline of Iran’s laws and policies. Whether you like it or not, it has a lot of meaning for them.
And one other thing. You can keep your personal opinion of Israel for yourself. The fact is that this ‘small piece of arid dirt’ has been in the center of countless disputes for the past thousands of years, and it remains as such even today.
While I do respect you and your knowledge, and I don’t want to sound like your teacher, you have proven yourself to have absolutely no idea about Israel, begining from very simple things as its landscapes. A person who thinks that Israel is a desert country where camels are the main means of transportation needs to learn about the reality, or better, visit us. Furthermore, a person that can’t see the value and beauty of the desert, as our Negev, really needs to get his eyes opened.
A simple search in the internet could show you a little of Israel beyond CNN and BBC. It would be my pleasure to talk to you privately about it, because is already way off topic.
1. Let Iran make nuclear weapons. We all know that there’s one country they’d love to use them on, and since it’s obliteration won’t affect the US in any way, shape, or form, go for it. Whatever. They aren’t anything special, nor do they hold a special UN mandate to be the only country in the region that does have nuclear weapons. Not that they care what the UN says anyway. Moving on.
It’s a real shame that a truly wise man such as yourself thinks like that. Israel or not, you’re talking about giving a madman a gun and encouraging him to shoot an innocent man, or in our case, giving Iran nukes and let them kill 7 million people. Does that sound reasonable to you, or do you care only about your country’s benefit out of this genocide, which isn’t even guaranteed?
You should be ashamed of yourself. And no, nothing you’ll say about Israel, justified or not, true or lie, can be your excuse for supporting a mass murder.
ErezNo, but what makes you think they won’t try to attack Tel Aviv or Haifa with small nukes?
ErezGoogle Earth has updated with some new high-rez imagery. Some of the new things you can find include:
-three Typhoon SSBNs
-Severomorsk-1 airfield
-pretty much anything in Germany, since the whole country is now high-rez
-A MiG-23 and an SA-5 site in Syria
Here are some pics from Syria, Dumayr AFB, An Nasiiryah AFB and Al Qusayr AFB.
I can’t recognize all of the aircraft types, so all of you, have a look and try to identify them.
ErezIsrael has upgraded its single seated F-15s fleet, and it will remain in service until 2025 at least. I see absolutely no need for such F-15F plane, either in Israel or the US.
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