After the fiasco with Patriot and Lavi there’s no way. I’d be surprised if they even get the F-35.

The alleged ‘Patriot deal’ was never proven. Even the US eventually backed down from this claim.
About the Lavi – again, unproven, although is seems there was an Israeli-Chinese cooperation to some extent in the J-10’s development. In a recent conversation I had with an Israeli aviation expert he told me that he too believes that there was a technology transfer, but it was done with the US blessing. People often forget that the US had a very strong interest to keep China strong during the Cold War. Among the rest, the US allowed Israel to sell China the Phyton-3 and upgrade their tanks with the latest Israeli technology. It is possible that the original cooperation between Israel and China over the J-10 was not only known to the US, but also approved by it.

About the F-35 – Israel is still a member in the JSF project. Its participation was suspended for a while, but the US assured Israel time and time again that it will receive F-35s sometime after the major members in the project.

I will remind you that there asre countries here who were developing radars at the time word Israel was a myth..

If you take even American influence as only probable, then you are clearly biased..

I am sure engineers from other countries are taught to increase costs and ignore any ready made technology, that is why they are so unsuccessful.

Except your PhDs working for free, do you know any better way how to cut costs so that even Israel can afford it?

And which state-owned company in the west is not ran as a private business?

LOL. They got the image of technology stealers not DESPITE, but BECAUSE there is all the information available about the history of the Israeli arms industries..

I never said these things are bad..

The first countries that started developing radars did so in the early 20th century. Israel was founded just after WWII, so even the radar technology at the time worldwide wasn’t very advanced.
While you seem to fully agree that countries such as China, Italy and even India managed to successfuly develop their own radars after the war, you seem to can’t even think of the possibility that Israel managed to catch up just as well.

I take the American influence as a possiblity because I can’t know for a fact whether it played any role or not.

Engineers worldwide are taught to cut costs, yes, but Israel always put a great emphasis on it. When the Lavi was developed, for example, most of its systems and technologies were supposed to be off the shelve, and have a very small number of groundbreaking technologies. This was done at a time when almost every part of any major project had to be almost reinvented during the development process.

Israel can afford to develop most of its domestic projects without any problem. First of all, there is the American aid money, of which a small fraction is spent in Israel. Second – in a country where the security budget is bigger than the education budget, don’t be so surprised that money is found for such causes.
And once more, you seem to be caught in the idea that Israel is very poor. While we are certainly not Japan, Israel’s economy is one of the world’s fastest growing and certainly one with a high GDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel
We shall continue this tomorrow as now I have to go.

Last time I have spoken to Him, He has shown pretty reluctant to join us on this forum.. Maybe we should pray more.. 😎

:p
But Flex, you are a respected member of this board, and as I expect every member to present his views followed by serious sources (or at least a somewhat deeper explanation of your views), I expect you to do so even more.
Such empty statements cause nothing but ignorance…

You hit the nail on your head. You were given everything for free, starting with land, ending with recent F-16Is. You have paid a fraction of what its worth, so if you don’t mind I shall give you one piece of advice. Shut up and be grateful..

This is way off topic, BUT – I do find your views interesting, and if you ever wish to discuss about them, please contact me privately.

Israel is a good way of how export-willing US companies out-trick embargoes and Congress approval. Israelis are good at what they do but they would never manage to develop so many systems by themselves..

Care to show us some real life examples?

I hope some members here can answer some of my questions about this ship.

How does Israel feel about this ship?

Why were only three built?

Why didn’t the USA export this ship to other countries?

Any other comments or pics of this class would be great!

There are some pics and information over here:
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/naval/saar5/Saar5.html

and you know that because you were there with us or because you are an allmighty Israeli who knows everything???

Israeli rabbis launch Arabs must be whipped of the map statements EVERY DAY but you don’t see any hypocrite around the world condemning them.

Of course I’m an almighty Israeli that knows all, and I used my flying capability to be in the demonstrations in Tehran 😉

I look at Iran and see beyond the major politicians. I believe the Iranians are mostly a peaceful people, that wants to earn its bread and live in dignity. They know, and I’ve been in contact with such people, that the “Big Satan” isn’t all that bad, and the “Small Satan” isn’t too bad either.
The common Iranian citizen doesn’t hate Jews because they are Jews, and even don’t hate Israelis. I know an Israeli that lived in NYC for a while. He used to buy hot dogs in the street from an Iranian man, and with time they even became friends. This Iranian used to bless him with “Shabbat Shalom”, and this little humane story just comes to show that under the big mouth of the Iranian leaders (and Jewish extremists and extremists in general), there is a normal nation that wants a normal life. The poors of Tehran and the poors of Tel Aviv don’t care about nuclear weapons. And the rich ones? Oh, they’re having joint vacations in Turkey 😀

Kfadrat, you and I live something like 250 kms from eachother. I respect you, and I know that you as a intelligent person can be very logical and aware of the worldwide politics. But then again – I see you as a Syrian citizen, one among thousands, shouting age old slogans such as “Death to America, death to Israel”, and some of you are burning the Israeli and American flags. The media catches the most extreme of you – but all in all I think it’s known to you as well – these demonstrations are led, organized and supported, both financially and ideologically, by the Assad regime.

Regarding to Syria – I just hope that your president won’t bring even more troubles to your country. Harriri wasn’t killed by Allah for being an infadel.

looks like it’s pretty popular too

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/28/iran.reaction/index.html
Thousands of Iranians stage anti-Israel demonstrations
Iran moves to ease reaction to anti-Israel remarks

Friday, October 28, 2005; Posted: 9:23 a.m. EDT (13:23 GMT)

(CNN) — Thousands of Iranians staged anti-Israel protests across the country Friday and repeated calls by their ultraconservative president demanding the Jewish state’s destruction.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad — marching with the protesters — signaled he stood by his remarks, even as Iranian officials tried to defuse the issue.

“My word is the same as that of (the) Iranian nation,” he told the official IRNA news agency.

“They are free to say but their words lack any credit,” he said, when asked about global reaction to his comments.

During a meeting with protesting students at Iran’s Interior Ministry on Wednesday, Ahmadinejad quoted a remark from Ayatollah Khomeini — founder of Iran’s Islamic revolution — that Israel “must be wiped out from the map of the world.”

But on Friday, Iran’s Moscow embassy — often used by Tehran to issue statements on foreign policy –said Ahmadinejad did not mean to “speak up in such sharp terms.”

The embassy said Ahmadinejad “did not have any intention to speak up in such sharp terms and enter into a conflict.”

“It’s absolutely clear that, in his remarks, Mr. Ahmadinejad, president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, underlined the key position of Iran, based on the necessity to hold free elections on the occupied territories,” Reuters quoted the embassy statement as saying.

Ahmadinejad’s comments drew swift and harsh reaction from governments in Europe and North America, as well as from U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in remarks issued Thursday by the Israeli government press office, said he believed any country that calls for the destruction of another cannot be a member of the United Nations.

Meanwhile, a day after the global condemnation, thousands of Iranians rallied in Tehran and other cities as part of al-Quds — Jerusalem — Day protests,Demonstrators held banners with anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian slogans.

One banner read “Death to Israel, death to America,” The Associated Press reported.

The state-organized rallies were first held in 1979 after Shiite Muslim clerics took power in Iran.

One of the strongest reactions to Ahmadinejad’s remarks came from British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who said they were “completely and totally unacceptable.”

“I felt a real sense of revulsion at those remarks,” said Blair, who spoke Thursday at a press briefing after a European Union summit near London.

“There has been a long time in which I’ve been answering questions on Iran with everyone saying to me ‘tell us you’re not going to do anything about Iran,'” he said.

“If they carry on like this, the question people are going to be asking us is, ‘When are you going to do something about this,’ because you imagine a state like that with an attitude like that having a nuclear weapon.”

Also Thursday, Annan expressed “dismay” over the Iranian president’s comments urging the destruction of Israel.

In a statement, Annan reminded “all member states that Israel is a long-standing member of the United Nations with the same rights and obligations as every other member.”

“Under the United Nations Charter, all members have undertaken to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,” the statement said.

In Washington, U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Ahmadinejad’s views “underscores our concern and the international community’s concerns about Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons.”

Ottawa also issued a strong rebuke, with Canadian Foreign Minister Pierre Pettigrew saying: “We cannot tolerate comments of such hatred, such anti-Semitism, such intolerance. These comments are all the more troubling given that we know of Iran’s nuclear ambitions.”

Across Europe, the reaction was equally strong. (Full story)

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said Thursday he condemned the Iranian statement “absolutely.”

“It is a completely unacceptable statement, of course. We should respect borders and respect the integrity of Israel, and we want Israel to live in peace with its neighbors,” he told BBC radio.

Asked whether he believed that Iran should be expelled from the U.N., Barroso said: “I condemn absolutely that statement, but I will not make any concrete proposal now.”

Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published,

Burger, these demonstrations, like the recent demonstrations in Syria, are organized by the regime. Nothing spontaneous, and it definately doesn’t reflect the opinion of the Iranian people.

The picture from Iran is confusing – on one hand we have Ahmadinejad’s statement and the fact that he’s still backing it, and from the other hand we have all those Iranian foreign policy people that feel somewhat embarrassed in front of the international community.
I find the explaination of the Iranian embassy in Russia completely unacceptable – what does the soon to happen free elections in the PA has to do with Ahmadinejad’s statement that Israel should be wiped off the map?
However, this is how politics work. The governments of the world, at least in part, will probably rather adopt these bizarre explainations and will eventually calm things down. I doubt that the UN or the US will do much. The US is deep in the Iraqi mud, and a UN coalition not led by the US – well, I don’t have much faith in that.

The last word in this story will be of the Ayatollahs.