ErezDo you know how funny you look when saying that?? (I don’t know what you look alike but most certainly not as funny when not saying anything like that… :p )
The dictionary definition of stealing:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:stealing&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Now, try to demostrate that in the history of Israel and the Palestinians, and I mean before 1967. What happened later is defined as occupation which of course changes the entire picture.
So apart of the “choosen people” and some minor natives, there was a natural dwellings of anglo-saxians in the holy land as well 😮 😮
Funny how you chose to use the “chosen people” instead of Jews. And the rest of the people who lived here weren’t minor, not by far.
And there were nearly no British people who lived here, except for the people who were responsible to run the mandate. The British Imperialism in the Middle East and North Africa, unlike its French counterpart, did not include the mass settlement of British people in the Empire’s territories.
Following your logic, FInalnd actually belongs to Sweden and the little piece of land that I happen to own is in reality a property of some Svenson living in Malmö???
Finland belongs to the people of Finland. I’m not really familiar with the history of your country, but I’m sure that it was always considered by the people of your nation as their homeland, just like the little piece of land between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea was always considered by Jews as their nation’s homeland.
ErezDo you know how funny you look when saying that?? (I don’t know what you look alike but most certainly not as funny when not saying anything like that… :p )
The dictionary definition of stealing:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:stealing&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Now, try to demostrate that in the history of Israel and the Palestinians, and I mean before 1967. What happened later is defined as occupation which of course changes the entire picture.
So apart of the “choosen people” and some minor natives, there was a natural dwellings of anglo-saxians in the holy land as well 😮 😮
Funny how you chose to use the “chosen people” instead of Jews. And the rest of the people who lived here weren’t minor, not by far.
And there were nearly no British people who lived here, except for the people who were responsible to run the mandate. The British Imperialism in the Middle East and North Africa, unlike its French counterpart, did not include the mass settlement of British people in the Empire’s territories.
Following your logic, FInalnd actually belongs to Sweden and the little piece of land that I happen to own is in reality a property of some Svenson living in Malmö???
Finland belongs to the people of Finland. I’m not really familiar with the history of your country, but I’m sure that it was always considered by the people of your nation as their homeland, just like the little piece of land between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea was always considered by Jews as their nation’s homeland.
Erezhttp://www.adl.org/international/Is…ntroduction.asp
is this your answer??? a pure and simple propaganda site?
Not every website that contains opinions other than your’s is propaganda.
I just said that this website contains a different nerative, the one you don’t like – but like every nerative it also contains important facts.
[“…who therefore needed their own homeland”
…and had it stolen from the inhabitants for them….
No one stole anything. This land did not belong to the Arabs. It didn’t belong to the Jews either. It was UN mandate administrated by Great Britain.
The two main groups of inhabitants, though, were Arabs and Jews. Each side had its own national aspirations concerning the land, and each had justficiations for these. What you fail to realize is that this was a homeland for two nations – not just one. For the Arabs, the place they were borned in, and for the Jews, the birthplace of their ancestors. Jews didn’t fall out of the sky over there. They came for a reason – and the reason is that they considered this land to be their homeland. And every historical evidence does point that this indeed was the historical birthplace of the Jewish nation.
The rightful solution for this problem was partition. The problem is, while the Jews declared their independence over the part given to them by the UN, the Arabs did not, and moreover, attacked the newly formed Jewish state. And lost the war.
I’ll also add that the Jewish settlements before 1948 were always established over land legally bought from the local Arab sheikhs.
So, your whole concept of “stealing the land” is completely baseless and is a result of historical ignorance.
no… they didnt forget them…they have been alternatively using them as almost slave labour or murdering them ever since!
This is about the largest pile of $hit I’ve heard for a long time. If you want to prove that there was Arab slavery in Israel at any given time in history, please, be my guest and try. Just be ready to look dumb.
“Regarding the way to make peace with the Palestinians, that’s a very simplistic analysis, but basically all I could say is that the road for peace will demand concessions from both sides – not just from Israel.”
simplistic??? not as simplisticor barbaric as genocide…
Myabe just maybe if you did try SIMPLISTIC in this form you wouldnt
” have to ” continue your brutal muderous campaigns or for that matter suffer the loss of both your soldiers and civilians..
They say that a wise man knows enough to know he knows nothing about anything. If you truly think that you know exactly how to make peace and what is the correct way which would really work, I think you know absolutely nothing.
Erezhttp://www.adl.org/international/Is…ntroduction.asp
is this your answer??? a pure and simple propaganda site?
Not every website that contains opinions other than your’s is propaganda.
I just said that this website contains a different nerative, the one you don’t like – but like every nerative it also contains important facts.
[“…who therefore needed their own homeland”
…and had it stolen from the inhabitants for them….
No one stole anything. This land did not belong to the Arabs. It didn’t belong to the Jews either. It was UN mandate administrated by Great Britain.
The two main groups of inhabitants, though, were Arabs and Jews. Each side had its own national aspirations concerning the land, and each had justficiations for these. What you fail to realize is that this was a homeland for two nations – not just one. For the Arabs, the place they were borned in, and for the Jews, the birthplace of their ancestors. Jews didn’t fall out of the sky over there. They came for a reason – and the reason is that they considered this land to be their homeland. And every historical evidence does point that this indeed was the historical birthplace of the Jewish nation.
The rightful solution for this problem was partition. The problem is, while the Jews declared their independence over the part given to them by the UN, the Arabs did not, and moreover, attacked the newly formed Jewish state. And lost the war.
I’ll also add that the Jewish settlements before 1948 were always established over land legally bought from the local Arab sheikhs.
So, your whole concept of “stealing the land” is completely baseless and is a result of historical ignorance.
no… they didnt forget them…they have been alternatively using them as almost slave labour or murdering them ever since!
This is about the largest pile of $hit I’ve heard for a long time. If you want to prove that there was Arab slavery in Israel at any given time in history, please, be my guest and try. Just be ready to look dumb.
“Regarding the way to make peace with the Palestinians, that’s a very simplistic analysis, but basically all I could say is that the road for peace will demand concessions from both sides – not just from Israel.”
simplistic??? not as simplisticor barbaric as genocide…
Myabe just maybe if you did try SIMPLISTIC in this form you wouldnt
” have to ” continue your brutal muderous campaigns or for that matter suffer the loss of both your soldiers and civilians..
They say that a wise man knows enough to know he knows nothing about anything. If you truly think that you know exactly how to make peace and what is the correct way which would really work, I think you know absolutely nothing.
ErezErez my old chap, come on! “Out-of touch-with-reality UN resolutions” means you pick and choose those that you agree with and those you don’t want to implement you simply ignore because you can and America will veto any that get too close to the bone! (interesting they didn’t veto 242!)
I appreciate we agree that the continuing building of new settlements is not helpful as well as being illegal under international law. Despite being contrary to commitments made to the US to halt expansion of the settlements, ironically it is made possible only by US subsidies; but ask Bush Senior how difficult to bend Israel’s ear in practice with even sound advice with the lobby in Congress that says never criticise!
Forceable sequestration of land from Arabs, often on questionable grounds, particularly around Jerusalem, also does not help, but we know Israel is doing this and building further Jewish settlements on the West Bank to make it more difficult to give this land back to the Palestinians. These actions will not change the fact that all foreign Embassies are in Tel Aviv not Jerusalem (except El Salvador-don’t ask! 😀 :diablo: ) because even the US will not challenge international law that does not recognise the annexation of East Jerusulem by Israel.
The truth is the Palestinians are being denied any remedy to their legitimate grievances. The way they live is a pressure cooker waiting to burst. Should they just accept their ill fate with meekness and docility? The main persecutors and killers of Jews were European: Germany, Russia, Poland, Lithuania etc (earlier in Spain and the Catholics with the inquisition, pogroms in most European countries). To atone and pay for these cruel EUROPEAN crimes, the Palestinians had their country was stolen from them on the basis that God gave this land to the Jews in the Book of Numbers in the Bible 3,000 years ago, forget that in the meantime Arabs had lived there for generations.
You will never get peace with the Palestinians until you address their genuine grievances and the misery of their daily existence. One way forward is to return just 22% of the original Palestine, including East Jerusalem.
By the way, you will always get extremists on all sides that don’t want to compromise or reason. But if you don’t even engage with them at any level, where else but to the extremists will the majority turn to? (witness the elections that ousted the corrupt Fatah faction and voted in Hamas). What have they got to lose? Should they just continue to be beasts of burden, merely to supply labour for Israel?
Regarding the UN and Israel, you might want to hear the other side of the story. You might disagree with some of it, but I’m sure that it just can’t be ignored:
http://www.adl.org/international/Israel-UN-1-introduction.asp
To atone and pay for these cruel EUROPEAN crimes, the Palestinians had their country was stolen from them on the basis that God gave this land to the Jews in the Book of Numbers in the Bible 3,000 years ago, forget that in the meantime Arabs had lived there for generations.
1) Zionism started a lot before the holocaust (around 50-70 years, depends how you look at it). The holocaust itself was not a reason for the creation of Israel, but it was the greatest example of antisemitism and persecution of Jews, who therefore needed their own homeland.
2) Zionism never used any god given promises to justify its existance and the creation of Israel. A brief look at the declaration of establishment of the State of Israel will show you the reasons stated by the Zionist leadership for the creation of Israel, and will also show you that they did not forget the land’s Arab inhabitants:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel
Regarding the way to make peace with the Palestinians, that’s a very simplistic analysis, but basically all I could say is that the road for peace will demand concessions from both sides – not just from Israel.
ErezErez my old chap, come on! “Out-of touch-with-reality UN resolutions” means you pick and choose those that you agree with and those you don’t want to implement you simply ignore because you can and America will veto any that get too close to the bone! (interesting they didn’t veto 242!)
I appreciate we agree that the continuing building of new settlements is not helpful as well as being illegal under international law. Despite being contrary to commitments made to the US to halt expansion of the settlements, ironically it is made possible only by US subsidies; but ask Bush Senior how difficult to bend Israel’s ear in practice with even sound advice with the lobby in Congress that says never criticise!
Forceable sequestration of land from Arabs, often on questionable grounds, particularly around Jerusalem, also does not help, but we know Israel is doing this and building further Jewish settlements on the West Bank to make it more difficult to give this land back to the Palestinians. These actions will not change the fact that all foreign Embassies are in Tel Aviv not Jerusalem (except El Salvador-don’t ask! 😀 :diablo: ) because even the US will not challenge international law that does not recognise the annexation of East Jerusulem by Israel.
The truth is the Palestinians are being denied any remedy to their legitimate grievances. The way they live is a pressure cooker waiting to burst. Should they just accept their ill fate with meekness and docility? The main persecutors and killers of Jews were European: Germany, Russia, Poland, Lithuania etc (earlier in Spain and the Catholics with the inquisition, pogroms in most European countries). To atone and pay for these cruel EUROPEAN crimes, the Palestinians had their country was stolen from them on the basis that God gave this land to the Jews in the Book of Numbers in the Bible 3,000 years ago, forget that in the meantime Arabs had lived there for generations.
You will never get peace with the Palestinians until you address their genuine grievances and the misery of their daily existence. One way forward is to return just 22% of the original Palestine, including East Jerusalem.
By the way, you will always get extremists on all sides that don’t want to compromise or reason. But if you don’t even engage with them at any level, where else but to the extremists will the majority turn to? (witness the elections that ousted the corrupt Fatah faction and voted in Hamas). What have they got to lose? Should they just continue to be beasts of burden, merely to supply labour for Israel?
Regarding the UN and Israel, you might want to hear the other side of the story. You might disagree with some of it, but I’m sure that it just can’t be ignored:
http://www.adl.org/international/Israel-UN-1-introduction.asp
To atone and pay for these cruel EUROPEAN crimes, the Palestinians had their country was stolen from them on the basis that God gave this land to the Jews in the Book of Numbers in the Bible 3,000 years ago, forget that in the meantime Arabs had lived there for generations.
1) Zionism started a lot before the holocaust (around 50-70 years, depends how you look at it). The holocaust itself was not a reason for the creation of Israel, but it was the greatest example of antisemitism and persecution of Jews, who therefore needed their own homeland.
2) Zionism never used any god given promises to justify its existance and the creation of Israel. A brief look at the declaration of establishment of the State of Israel will show you the reasons stated by the Zionist leadership for the creation of Israel, and will also show you that they did not forget the land’s Arab inhabitants:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel
Regarding the way to make peace with the Palestinians, that’s a very simplistic analysis, but basically all I could say is that the road for peace will demand concessions from both sides – not just from Israel.
ErezOn the contrary, the real irony is that Israel wants UN resolutions to disarm Hezbollah to be implemented, and yet when the boot’s on the other foot, namely implementation of UN resolution 242 (return to 1967 borders) Israel doesn’t want to know!
Instead, just keep building more settlements on the West Bank (financed by massive US taxpayers money-it’s only the annual US Aid Package subsidy that allows Israel to do this), to create “facts” on the ground. O what a tangled web we weave! 😀
Come on, the UN was always seriously anti-Israel. I admit that there were some positive movements in the last couple of years though. But don’t expect Israel to implement all those out-of-touch-with-reality UN resolutions, which always demanded Israel to risk itself.
About the new building in the West Bank, I don’t want to go there, both because it’s off topic and probably because I’m against it as you are.
Whats the irony? We as the chairmens of the EU and long tradditions with Un peacekeeping are obligated to send the troops. Also its good message to Israel, that we don’t fear and swallow the bombings of UN targets.
What I meant is that soldiers from your country will take part in peacekeeping in Lebanon, and although I wish them good luck and hope they’ll all come back home safe, I wonder if it’s really these guys’ top priority to be there, messing around with Hizballah people and directly or indirectly keeping Israel safer. Just don’t expect it to go smooth.
ErezOn the contrary, the real irony is that Israel wants UN resolutions to disarm Hezbollah to be implemented, and yet when the boot’s on the other foot, namely implementation of UN resolution 242 (return to 1967 borders) Israel doesn’t want to know!
Instead, just keep building more settlements on the West Bank (financed by massive US taxpayers money-it’s only the annual US Aid Package subsidy that allows Israel to do this), to create “facts” on the ground. O what a tangled web we weave! 😀
Come on, the UN was always seriously anti-Israel. I admit that there were some positive movements in the last couple of years though. But don’t expect Israel to implement all those out-of-touch-with-reality UN resolutions, which always demanded Israel to risk itself.
About the new building in the West Bank, I don’t want to go there, both because it’s off topic and probably because I’m against it as you are.
Whats the irony? We as the chairmens of the EU and long tradditions with Un peacekeeping are obligated to send the troops. Also its good message to Israel, that we don’t fear and swallow the bombings of UN targets.
What I meant is that soldiers from your country will take part in peacekeeping in Lebanon, and although I wish them good luck and hope they’ll all come back home safe, I wonder if it’s really these guys’ top priority to be there, messing around with Hizballah people and directly or indirectly keeping Israel safer. Just don’t expect it to go smooth.
ErezOh, the irony. Finland plans to send 250 soldiers to Lebanon.
ErezOh, the irony. Finland plans to send 250 soldiers to Lebanon.
ErezWHICH WASNT A HUGE SUCCESS!!
Dont go by what looks good and loos futeristic , they have to feild a system by 2014 that meets requirments interms of payload , reliability etc for many many years to come , this system offers less risk and has a very robust expansion capability which is good. The NASA chaps are a lot smarter then you or I and they should know what they need with the ammount of money they are sanctioned.
I may not be a NASA engineer but at least for the mission of getting to and from the ISS even I know that the most cost effective way is using off the shelf Russian Soyuz capsules, which are proven and tested, instead of taking the risk of developing a new platform.
The only reason I could think of not to do this is that it doesn’t “look good” that Astronauts flown by the American space agency will be using Russian made space vehicles.
ErezWHICH WASNT A HUGE SUCCESS!!
Dont go by what looks good and loos futeristic , they have to feild a system by 2014 that meets requirments interms of payload , reliability etc for many many years to come , this system offers less risk and has a very robust expansion capability which is good. The NASA chaps are a lot smarter then you or I and they should know what they need with the ammount of money they are sanctioned.
I may not be a NASA engineer but at least for the mission of getting to and from the ISS even I know that the most cost effective way is using off the shelf Russian Soyuz capsules, which are proven and tested, instead of taking the risk of developing a new platform.
The only reason I could think of not to do this is that it doesn’t “look good” that Astronauts flown by the American space agency will be using Russian made space vehicles.
ErezThis spacecraft actually looks like a step BACK in technology, judging by how
it looks.
How did we go from a space shuttle to a capsule?
It would probably be cheaper and easier to launch, but could it have the same capabilities as the space shuttle, and more?
It might be a good vehicle to get to and from the international space station, but is that really the kind of vehicle which would be used to (re)explore the moon, and later on take part in Mars exploration?
What NASA should have done, in my opinion, is one of the following:
1) Build a newly redesigned space shuttle, based on the current model.
2) Build the X-33. Now that’s a new generation spacecraft.
3) Use Russian designed capsules to get to the international space station while saving more R&D money for a next generation Mother Of All Spacecrafts, which could get us to Mars.
Seriously, this new thing looks like a toy.
ErezThis spacecraft actually looks like a step BACK in technology, judging by how
it looks.
How did we go from a space shuttle to a capsule?
It would probably be cheaper and easier to launch, but could it have the same capabilities as the space shuttle, and more?
It might be a good vehicle to get to and from the international space station, but is that really the kind of vehicle which would be used to (re)explore the moon, and later on take part in Mars exploration?
What NASA should have done, in my opinion, is one of the following:
1) Build a newly redesigned space shuttle, based on the current model.
2) Build the X-33. Now that’s a new generation spacecraft.
3) Use Russian designed capsules to get to the international space station while saving more R&D money for a next generation Mother Of All Spacecrafts, which could get us to Mars.
Seriously, this new thing looks like a toy.
ErezI see.
So, at what point does an ex-terrorist become politically acceptable?
It happened for a variety of reasons. Mostly political reasons.
Why even debate any of this anymore. We all have our opinions and who cares what they are really? Our opinions are irrelevant because unfortunately Israeli civilians are dying and Lebanese civilians are being used as shields by their “protectors.”
We debate this because Israel is not alone in this world. Most of the members who post here live in democratic nations. I believe that if they won’t be exposed to other opinions other than their own, this will eventually effect their countries to adopt more radical policies against Israel.
Only proplem is that IDF is not able to do it…It’s different to shoot schoolkids throwing stones but when faced up against real soldiers fighting like in their situation should be done, the mighty IDF is running home with his wag between his legs…
The only thing which stopped Israel from eradicating Hizballah was its presence among civilan population.
Trust me, Israel could have destroyed Hizballah, it’s just a question of how nasty it wants things to get.
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