Srbin, you are forgeting two things:
1) The current trainer, the Tzukit (Fuga Magister) is also twin engined.
2) The Javelin will be better suited for the Israeli needs. Also, there is a possiblity that it will be financed using the American aid.

The ones Jordan will get cannot be fired at Israeli planes I heard. So its basically pointless. Jordan has no other threats apart from Israel.

Why should Israel be a threat over Jordan? we have no border clashes with them, and our peace is the most active peace agreement in the middle east, from economical and security point of views, much more than with Egypt. To say we are a threat to them is pretty hypocritical by Jordan. After all, we do have a peace agreement, and besides – the regime in Jordan is the unstable regime – not Israel’s.

Back to the original topic – it seems now that the F/A-50 might lose a big potential customer – the IDF/AF, now that the ATG/IAI Javelin (AJT version) will be produced in Israel and developed mainly for the Israeli air force.

Here is a 3D model I’m doing of the Javelin.

OK… after doing some reading, something looks very strange for me. They said the IAI will be a partner in its designing, but on the other hand a prototype Javelin is already finished (by ATG) and will fly next month.
http://www.iai.co.il/site/en/iai.asp?pi=23048&doc_id=33270

First of all, I wouldn’t count on any civilian model to tell us exactly how the J-10B looks.
Second, it’s not only Sharon eating his heart out – this is Israel’s lost chance to be a high tech military aircraft manufactor.

You do not believe your last sentence really?
Israel gave permission for landing and denied it before landing. No question about that.
Israel was informed for hours. No question about that.
No might be, just facts.
There was enough time before to inform and ask the Cypriots in advance.
Every flight has a flight-plan filled-in in advance.
No question about that.
What has flight control on air-roads (= to avoid collisoins) to do with a landing in Israel?
What made situation much worse, was the wrong interception of a Swiss airliner first and not informing Cyprus about intentions about Israeli flight in advance. (severe “Rambo” behavior).
The air-road G-18 goes from Rhodos south of Cyprus to Tel-Aviv.
“Cyprus: Entire airspace over territory and territorial waters is a prohibited area, axcept for overflying aircraft within airways and as instructed by ATC within Nicosia CTR.”
“For Communications & Control Procedures within Nicosia FIR/UR refer to JEPPESEN BRIEFING BULLETIN called ‘NICOSIA FIR/UIR – IATA COMMUNICATION CONTROL PROCEDURES’
Would be interesting to learn, if to read in Israeli papers a line, what the IATA will force on Israel.

I won’t look for excuses Sens, I’ve already said I am not an expert in civilian aviation matters. That’s also why I wrote all of the above as guessing rather than facts.

By the way, I have a satellite map of Israel next to my PC.

Damn, I was right – you are an Israel geek :diablo: 😉

Well, the Dutch don’t divert aircraft to Denmark or Luxemburg. That’s the problem i have with Israel’s actions.

Arthur, you’re talking as if we forced the Cypriots to let it land in their country… which we didn’t.
They were asked for permission, and they agreed.

Yovata is 12 km/6,5 nm to the east. I like the ‘milkshakes there’
Mizpe Ramon is 80 km/41 nm to the north not 150 as you give.
Eilat is 41 km/22 nm to the south.

“Circuting for landing over Eilat is avoidable and is being avoided.” Why do you name Eilat and other places, when it has to come to a diversion of Uvda?

Baraks idea about a route to Uvda, was a little bit ironic, but possible.

Well well well… 😀
I don’t have a map of Israel over my desktop, do you? :dev2:
Anyway, if we’re still talking about why the Iranian plane was allowed to get to Uvda – well as I said before, it was clear that it wasn’t hijacked as an act of terror. The hijacker didn’t plan to blow it up somewhere, not even in Israel.
Why am I mentioning Eilat? because Eilat is the closest city to Uvda. It’s pretty close. I believe about 30km south of Uvda (and don’t catch me over a kilometer more or less 😉 ).

You know Barak, reading Erezs posts and speaking to Israelis I know makes me sympathis with there position at times, then at other times people like you write the above and then I think to myself, my Isreal deserves everything it gets……..

Don’t get sad, it’s just the nervous and cynical Israeli humor 😉

Bingo But to be serious. There was a very, very remote chance, that something unexspected could happen during those 2 minutes when approaching runway 08 BGIAP from the south.(see scan) Even that time, the 747 was a few seconds over built-up area only. Just some hundred feet above ground. Worst case scenario in mind and “warned by telephone before” there were “unknown” chemicals (WMD) next to a “bigger” bomb in the cargo hold. The “big” explosion with fuel left, will have consumed it.

But Sens, what if just a single anthrax bacteria will survive and land over Lod/Tel-Aviv (depending on the wind and all)? does it worths the chance?
For Israel it didn’t. For the Cypriots apparently it did.

The “terrorist” did not know in advance, if the airliner will come down over Ramle/Lod with mainly Arab population.

The Iranians are also threating of wiping Israel off the map, and doesn’t seem to care less about the Palestinians or Israeli Arabs. All this ‘Arab brotherhood’ thing doesn’t matter for some of the terrorists. Al Qaeda is blowing up bombs in Riad.

From http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/485529.html :

The Lufthansa jet, which was flying from Frankfort to Tel Aviv, was intercepted south-west of Cyprus by two F-16s to keep it from entering Israeli air space.

Just to clear it up, these were F-15s. A picture that was taken by a passenger of one of the two that escorted the 747 was published in a newspaper here.

What is of special interest for me. Why did the radar at Sderot not work as promised to give warning time against ‘Kassams’?

It’s working, but the alarm isn’t sounded yet. The warning time is of about 20 seconds, not enough for hiding but enough, as Barak said, to create a lot of panic, possibly causing even more loss of human life (in car accidents, running people)…

:diablo:
So no air traffic in Israel at all. :confused:
Some day there will be a landing/take-off accident from an airliner or military, which alone lost several aircraft over Israel in accidents before. 😮
The situation in Israel is not more risky than in every European country, when it comes to a terrorist threat.
By the way, the “idiots” from IDF-AF have had let the Iranian airliner come down at Uvda, not red your post over locations near by. :p
What me angers most is the nonsense over dangers posted, which did not exists really, when looking to the facts at hand. :rolleyes:
I am shure, that the 747 have had found its way to Larnaca without fighters near by. 😎

No Sens, just no air traffic with bombs over Israel 😉

Some day there will be a landing/take-off accident from an airliner or military, which alone lost several aircraft over Israel in accidents before.

What do you mean by that?
I didn’t fully get it.

By the way, the “idiots” from IDF-AF have had let the Iranian airliner come down at Uvda, not red your post over locations near by.

That’s because that plane came from the east, straight to Uvda. There was nearly no danger to people on the ground, not to mention the fact that the guy who hijacked it didn’t want to blow it, just to land it somewhere. Anywhere. But Jordan, SA and Egypt didn’t let it and it was short of fuel, so eventually it landed at Uvda.

I am shure, that the 747 have had found its way to Larnaca without fighters near by.

It’s a routine procedure…
What made these fighter planes to escort it right until Cyprus is unknown to me. If there was something wrong by doing it, I would count on the boys from the IDF/AF to figure it out and fix it.

I think Uvda/Ovda (is Uvda the correct spelling? I always thought it was with an O) is pretty remote, down there in the Negev. I can imagine that i would prefer my own (Israeli) bombsquad snooping through a suspect aircraft than someone else’s (Cypriotic) sappers. When trying to entrance to a suspected ‘threat’ like Israel has done now today, you also deny yourself the possible intelligence. If the Cypriots actually had found something aboard, i’m not so sure if that would have given the same possibly useful anti-terrorist information to Israel as would have happened if Israeli specialists combed the plane.

That’s Uvda. It is named after an operation carried out in the Negev by the IDF in 1948, and it’s Hebrew for ‘fact’. I learnt it only recently also.
Now again, it doesn’t matter if it was just a bomb on it. You don’t know if it’s a common N.glycerin bomb or a WMD. You just can’t let it fly over populated areas, and the only way that goes from the Med. sea to Uvda, inside the Israeli borders, is over the coast which is highly populated.
You simply can’t take the risk.

Also, as was said before: you shouldn’t overestimate the danger of a crashing airliner, especially not if it’s blown up at a few thousand feet. It has no chance of taking as many lives as were lost on 9/11.

I’ve been taught that every single human life worths the bother.