So what exactly does the Israeli army do – send a letter in the hope that the postman delivers before the bulldozers arrive? Why does it always seem that whenever houses are bulldozed and their occupants are interviewed by TV reporters they invariably complain that they were given seconds to get out or be buried – is the army that scared of TV exposure that they refuse to give warning and would rather have that sort of bad publicity spread around the world? There was a news report on (UK) Channel 4 News (last spring, I think) where a reporter was following a peace protestor: one evening they were invited to sample the hospitality of a Palistinian university professor and his family; the following morning they got a call to say that the village where they had just been entertained was being flattened by the Israeli army. They found their friend and his family alive but that they had escaped with relatively nothing from their home before it was bulldozed.

An Israeli Arab student I talked to a few months ago told me about his uncle, that was informed that his home will be bulldozed, a few weeks before it did. Perhaps it’s got something to do with the opertional needs of the IDF.

Should these kids wait in their homes as the bulldozers plough up their town and squash their homes? Should they go to school and prey that they have a home to return to at the end of the day? Or should they give up hope and just throw stones at the tanks, APCs, bulldozers, etc?

Since when kids decide alone whether to go into battle fields?
The question I’m asking is, where the hell are their parents?
Do they even know where their kids are?
I don’t care where these kids will be – they can be either in their home, that if the IDF will have to destroy, they will be informed about it, or in school where they are safe.

And your young soldiers obviously have absolutely no respect for human life or any realisation that their sheer stupidity can lead to an escalation in violence.

Ok, first of all, you can’t say that whole of our soldiers are evil. The international media is trying to demonize the picture of the Israeli soldier.

The Israeli army used to be a very professional army, highly regarded around the world for their skill and ingenuity. Now I would lump them in with those swaggering braggarts from the Vietnam era who proudly boasted that they knew and understood ‘Charlie’, would encourage the sticking of severed heads on their vehicles and merrily collect their fallen foes ears to make necklaces (not that I am saying that this is what is happening now – just that the same style of ‘we can do no wrong’ is permiating from the army). Anyway, the commanding officers and the NCOs of these young hotheads should be prosecuted for gross incompetence if that is the best defence that can be put forward, so as to show the world that such disrespect will not be tolerated – the Americans are only now finding out just how bad things can get when troops lack respect for the innocent and treat the good as though they were bad.

Again you should understand that the IDF’s policy is to try not to hurt the Palestinian civilians. There are some problems, but they are local only and will be and are handled. You can’t blame the whole army for stupid actions taken by a bunch fools or frustrated soldiers. Heck, a large part of the IDF isn’t even fighting in the Palestinian Territories.
These fools are prosecuted, and their commanders too. Also keep in mind that no army in the world has to deal with the problems the IDF is dealing. And again, you can’t blame the entire IDF and its soldiers because of stupid things a few of them did. The IDF’s soldiers still got a high moral and they are still proffesional. For sure they aren’t devils.

Oops, I meant to say twin-finned, not twin-engined. The early hopes were that the Saeqeh 80 would be a F-14 derivative. It is still uncertain as to whether the twin finned aircraft is named Azarakarsh II or Saeqeh 80.

Well GD, a few weeks ago I believe it was PAF Fan that posted here an Iranian video article about the plane, and I could clearly hear the man there saying ‘Sa’ege”.

The problem would be that only one set of extremists has Merkava tanks and F-16s.

Just like John said. And another problem is that only one set of extremists got killing civilians in its agenda. Even our worst right wing extremists don’t say we should kill the Palestinians. The worst opinion is transporing them to Jordan. Compare that to blowing up inside busses. Both sides of extremists are stupid.
When we bomb or shot at someone, it’s because we think he’s a terrorist. When they bomb or shot at someone, it’s because they think he’s a Jewish Israeli civilian.

Kids in battle zones? What are you on?

Look at these links. Why are these kids on the street, outside home or school?
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/11/24/mideast.03/story.ramallah.clash.ap.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1600000/images/_1600045_tank_afp150.jpg
http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20photo%20negatives/2003%20news%20phot%20negatives/Jan%2003%20pho%20neg/p123ic1.jpg

These are kids in the streets outside their homes, are they not? They live there and cannot move on because the governing power tries to ‘ghetto-ise’ them and then bulldoze their homes without warning.

First of all, these kids should be inside their homes, even if the IDF is working or fighting next to it.
Second, we only bulldoze two kinds of homes – those of terrorists, or those that are used by the terrorists to shoot at our soldiers. And whenever we bulldoze a house we always – repeat always – inform the people in it.

That British guy who was in a coma (and eventually died) after being shot in the head – whilst wearing a reflective jacket to escort kids across a road – didn’t get shot with a non lethal weapon but by a high-powered snipers rifle which should have enabled the soldier concerned to pick out the freckles on his face and read the wording on his jacket; is that what we are talking here?
A few weeks ago it was revealled that a BBC team was detained so that an Israeli snipers team could use the home of old Plaistinian woman to shoot and critically injure a boy (my memory says he was 14 but no guarantees) who was subsequently (apparently) proven to have nothing to do with any nefarious activities except to the military press officer (even a senior army officer the reporter questioned accepted that the boy was just a passerby) – and the story was about the difficulties of operating as a Doctor in the Palestinian zone.

That’s why I said that $hit happens. It’s a war and war is always dirty.
However, the sniper that shot the journalist is standing trial and will sit some time in jail.

I saw a video on the net about a year ago of an Israeli jeep that took a detour onto a pavement and crashed into a news photographer, sending him flying and apparently shattering his pelvis and both legs: his crime was to be photographing a wedding or similar ‘happy’ ceremony when a patrol came past and thought they’d have a little ‘fun’ (I think).

These soldiers, remember that they are only about 20yr old. Only yesterday they went to high school. Their country sent them in order to protect the civilians. They are going through a lot, and they are still so young. It’s not a proffesional army like the British or American army. Still, that however doesn’t allow them to do things like that, and if they are caught they expect jail.

The British army tries to work on hearts and minds and calm serious situations that way – to me it looks like Israel sends in the snipers and bulldozers instead. Hearts and minds… – Nermal

The IDF’s policy is to try to be as sensitive as possible to the Palestinian civilians. However, for example when you want to open the Erez gate so that thousands of Palestinians could earn their bread with honor, and two days later a terrorists explodes there, it makes it very hard.
BTW there is one famous story, that just shows that the Palestinian civilans don’t really care about Arafat, Sharon, Al Kuds and whatever, they just want to live with honor. In the Erez gate, in the Palestinian side, the Palestinian workers identified a terrorist among them, so they jumped on him and beat him almost to death.
It’s just comes to show that the extremists, of both sides, are the ones who make all the noise and the problems.

I mean the settlements with eg: a real house

The major settlements are not allowed to build more houses over their current design and the US is making sure it happens from the space. When they still build, it causes us many problem. We can’t control every move of the settlers, but we try. We got a huge political and civilian mass because of it now.

Any particular people, or just you?
Do you deny that all I have said is true? Is it all lies? Is it all one sided? Or is it that since it is not your view I am completely wrong?
There are a lot of people here who have decided that since others don’t agree with them and their view then these others must be against them – and therefore socialists/communists/Arab-lovers (chose whichever suits your requirement): there has always been, and always will be, two sides to every story and in this case we seem to be arguing about your views and visions on a thread that started off as something else. How about you start a thread yourself and take this discussion there?

OK, so let’s deal with your earlier post a step by step.
1) When was the peace that we have fought for was handed to? in Camp David? please…
Just face it – the peace process that we had so far was a failure. Not of its ideology, but with the people that managed it, from both sides but mostly the Palestinian side. After Rabin was killed, the Israeli leaders weren’t as commited to it, but even worst were most of the Palestinian leaders – corrupted, not realistic and simply terrorists or ex-terrorists. Dear Mr. Arafat was and still is one of the first and most important terrorists in the world. Both financing terrorism, ordering terrorism, and playing it an angel next to the EU and US. The peace process was managed badly. From both sides, but don’t think that the Palestinians were ready for peace. In 2000, disappointed from the fact he got about 96% or 97% from the territory he wanted, but without Jerusalem, Arafat turned to his good ole way of terrorism, in order to make the Israeli people stress the government “just to make peace already, even in the price of Jerusalem”. What went wrong in his plan is that we didn’t, and we will never, give up Jerusalem, at least not the whole of it.

that it is happy to terrorise journalists if they don’t tow the governments line, that it shoots at unarmed peace workers and medics indescriminantly, that it happily shoots children throwing stones at tanks (what damage is a tank going to suffer from a rock hitting it? And what damage is a child going to suffer from getting hit by a heavy machine gun shell?).

2) $hit happens. For a fact.
Journalists are taking a proffesional risk when they go into the battle zones. We usually don’t shot peace workers, until they start bugging the soldiers or damaging fences and military installations. And even when we shot, it’s 95% of the time non lethal weapons, like tear gas and stuff like that. And that’s without mentioning the journalists and peace workers that go into battle zones when they don’t ask for permission from the IDF. When you fight inside streets, and the terrorists don’t wear uniform, you can never know if the guy you shot at is a journalist or a terrorist. Even if the guy got a camera, remember there’s a real battle going on there. Don’t expect us to inspect every man out there and waste our time when we can kill the really bad guys.
About children in the war. First of, WTF are these kids doing inside battles anyway?
For god sake, they should be in school. And if it’s not school time, it’s just natural that children and other innocent people will hide in their homes!
Second of, we don’t kill children because we want. They terrorists know that we won’t shot on small, unarmed and innocent children, so now they got a new technic – paying 20 shekels (about 4$) for a kid so he will carry a bomb, inside his school bag, through an Israeli inspection spot, and when they are getting close to the Israeli soldiers, they blow the bag, and the kid, from a long distance.

The pic of CF-716 shows the problematic tail section.
Convergent-nozzle in dry/subsonic.
The scan shows the ultimate Nammer variant with ATAR 9K50, optimised
tail section and better balanced.
F404/R-12 offer many benefits, but create some imbalance to the design.

I don’t see anything problematic with that tail section. How can you tell? are you an aeronautical engineer? :diablo:
And are you sure it’s the ATAR 9K50 in that Nammer picture?
And why do you think the F404 will imbalance the design?
I’m not an aeronautical engineer, so I don’t know if you are right. But how do you know you are right?

Really? I wasn’t aware that the settlers were European nomads and had no homes before they were rounded up into camps by a madman.

They did, but thier property was taken away from them. Their homes, their money. Their family. Everything.