hey girls, what happened to being on topic? I came here to see Russian and Chechen Bashing!! not Israel-Palestinian topics.

i am very disappointed.. I hope Ariel Sharon eats you all.

Sorry Big Mac, but I’m gonna have to reply these gents before.

So history is only interresting when it can be used for own purpuses, but it becomes irrelevant now. Strange You bring up the fact that Jews have always lived in that region. I favour Sharon’s efforts for a roadmap towards peace, eventually these colonies will have to be disbanded because 18-year old conscripts shouldn’t die to protect them. The PA should also get rid of Yasser Arafat, or at least the EU should stop giving money to him. These are the two first steps. I still think peace is possible. In the beginning of the nineties Israel was one of the safest places to live thanks to Oslo-treaty. I can even understand why Israel is building that wall, but the wall should be build fair.

Interesting, yes. But, again, not relavent to the point I was trying to make, that there is no and never was a state called Palestine.
I really (really) like your two sided view. You can see that both side aren’t angels and both got to make some moves towards peace. Wish more Europeans were like you.
About the fence – I’ve already explained about it earlier.

Oh and Big M – what’s with the Sharon insults? I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be too happy if anyone started saying such things about Bush. Sharon has a large body and he’s old – but you should read what kind of a hero he was during his military service. That can’t be said about your president, a National Guard pilot, and the president with the lowest IQ ever.

Member of surfers against sewage, me.
We all surf, and most of this is crap.

:confused: 🙁
Sewage? you mean me?
Why? 🙁
I mean, the general discussion forum was made for chating off the aviation topics.

I don’t know. I do know that they are mostly based in the ‘Top Gun’ base, I believe it’s called “Miramar”. So it’s actually to the Navy as well.

This sounds like the words of wisdom. However I doubt that it what the majority of people want in this part of the world.

Hopefully this will happen some day

The majority here voted for Sharon, that’s how he became the Prime Minister – and he said that he is commited for the Road Map and his seperation plan. If that won’t happen, we will simply replace him.

Erez, states are an invention of the 19th century, so they are relativelly modern. Before, there were no international conventions regarding the borders. Maybe there was never a Palestinian State, but the state of Israel is also only 56 years old. Even if there have always lived Jews in the region that doesn’t mean that Israel’s right to exist is based upon one single belief! Modern states, like the US, France or Israel, are secular. Today’s Israel is not a continuation of the biblical Israel. The “who was before” game is kind of rediculous because eventually we all came from Africa. People living in Wales today can also claim that they own Belgium because Celts were here long before the Germanic tribes made them move somewhere else. More important than the ethnic ties are the cultural ones.

Look, I don’t want to take the debate from the main point into irrelavent historical and philosophical questions, and the main point is that I commented on the fact that you guys talk about some dreamland called ‘Palestine’, that doesn’t and never existed. That’s the point, and you seem to understand it, so don’t try now to explain why not having a state doesn’t mean you don’t have a state, or something like that :rolleyes:

You admit Palestinians have right upon their own territories. So why are you building a wall, which itself I have no problems with, on THEIR land? Why are there colonies in their territories? As I said before, both parties are wrong.

I don’t – “admit” – anything. No one is guilty, no one is wrong. The fact that the Palestinians were living here for a couple of centuries and got some territories is not something you or I decide. It’s the reality on the ground. Do I like it?
No. Can I live with that? Yes. Do I have another choice but peace? No.

You should understand that the security fence is built not as a political fence, and Palestinian territories a few kilometers, meters and so on inside it are still marked as Palestinian on the map. Nobody is making them an integral part of Israel. However, we build this fence how our army think it will protect us the best (and that’s without mentioning our own, Israeli courts, that sometimes make us change the fence because of a Palestinian civilian complains about it), and we build it as self defence – non aggressive move – and until the Palestinian terrorism stops, you should understand that we are just trying to protect ourselves, and that we do it regardless of the needs of the Palestinians (and again, the courts change that sometimes too). And if that Palestinian villiager is angry that part of his land is taken away from him, at least for a while, then he should not cry about it and say ‘the occuping zionists’ bla bla bla, he should say: “We must stop terrorism”, and change something inside them and make terrorism stop, so we can remove that fence.
For most of the Israelis, the day that security fence will be removed and an international border will be placed between Israel and, hopefully, the Palestinian state, will be a happy day.

And who was there before this stupid thing that divides man and nations; religion? My point being that maybe there has been a human presence there and yet there is still fighting.
Give it back to the local wildlife – maybe then there will be peace, of a sort.

Flood, I never knew you are a Greenpeace activist 😉

You don’t go oout of topic.
What was it before 1948. Who owned this land ? The Brits?

According to the UN, the british mandate gave the Brits the control over the land. Before the Brits it was the Turks, before that it was Crusaders/Arabs, earlier the Romans, before that the kingdoms Judea and Israel, and before that, a variety of peoples that none survived until today. The only people that always had a presence in the land are actually the Jews. When the Romans came, we were here. When the crusaders came, we were here. When the Arabs came, we were here. When the Turks came, we were here, and when the Brits came we were here. Indeed not all of us, but the important thing is that we always kept a presence here.
Now again, there was never an Arab Palestinian state. Never. You can always play the ‘who was before’ game, but eventually you’ll see that the people that owned the land first, and still exist today, are the jews.
But the ‘who was before game’ fails the test of reality, so some territories are rightfully owned by the Palestinians today. That, however, does not mean there was ever an Arab Palestinian state.

According to Saudi Arabia, Israel doesn’t exist too, does that mean the people there don’t have the right on their territories.

As I said before, you don’t have to have state in order to have your own territories, so just because the Palestinians have territories, it doesn’t mean they have a state, and therefore the name “Palestine” today has no political, geographical of whatever meaning. It might regain a meaning, when the Palestinians will start walking on the right way towards a state, instead of today’s way, of terrorism. Until that sweet dream happens, the name Palestine means nothing to me.

I’m sorry for entering your debate here, but some members mentioned some country called ‘Palestine’. Can you please point it on the map? I can’t seem to find it.
Seriously, some people here are living in delusion. There is no Palestinian state. And the Palestinian terrorists don’t help the Palestinian people to get one anytime soon.
There are Palestinian owned territories, yes. But not a state, so far.
Let’s have some history review over the name Palestine:
Judea being destroyed by the Romans, somewhere in the 1st century. Then the Romans call Jerusalem “Ilia Capitolina” and Judea is renamed after the Philistine people, that once settled the land of Knaan, before the hebrews. None of these people survived to the time of the Romans, but that’s how they called it. From that on Crusaders and Arabs came and left the land, and the Roman word “Philistine” turned into “Palestine” in Arab. The last time the name Palestine was an official name of a place was in the early 20th century when the British ruled here, and even then the official name was “Palestine-Land of Israel”. In 1948 the state of Israel was formed.
To conclude it, there was never an Arab Palestinian state. They do have some rights on some of the land today, but you can’t call it “Palestine”.
The official name is “The Palestinian Authority”.
Sorry for going somewhat off topic.

Hamburger, I know you aren’t an antisemite, but it seems like this picture has antisemitism in it. It’s not just Sharon that fires, but the star of david that sybolizes the Jewish nation and make it look like a symbol of the devil.
That’s pretty insulting.