ErezYeah, I’d have agree.
The Avro Arrow is the best aircraft never to enter service.
The YF-23 and the Lavi were both replaced in the end, not that their replacers are better than what they were, but still, they were replaced. The Arrow would have been what the Phantom was for America, a new level, a new standart.
So what happened to all of the prototypes?
Erez” UN coalition F16XL and F15 fighters swept clear the night skies of Iraq today as the war to retake Kuwait began. American B70F Valkyrie bombers swept through Iraqi air defences at Mach 3 destroying army barrack, airfields and important communication nodes. British TSR2 Mark 4 strike planes supported by RAF F3 Mk1 Tomcat fighters destroyed radars, SCUD launchers and other targets of opportunity with ALARM missles, PGMs and cluster bombs as they cleared corridors for other strike planes. Rumours also suggest the presence of two prototype US Navy A12 bombers being used operationally over Iraq in an attempt to prove their worth before Congress. Sources suggest they violated well defended airspace over Kuwait with ease and dropped bombs on a tank park on the outskirts of Kuwait City and then recovered to Diego Garcia AH56 Cheyenne attack Helicopters also launched limited attack on Iraqi ground forces near the Saudi border to limit incursion by Iraqi special units”
And let’s not forget that the Israeli Air Force was jumpy and Lavis were patroling the skies of Israel during all the war, ready to attack if needed to:)
ErezHuh… a what-if thread… I like it!;)
My vote goes of course to the Lavi, but I’m not relavent 😀
Anybody knows what cockpit did the F-16XL had?
ErezVery beautiful!;)
ErezI think I’m that second.
ErezDon’t remember that US assistance only came in with the post-1982 Lavi, when it was suddenly decided to become an advanced multi-role fighter in stead of the relatively simple A-4 replacement it was originally ment to be. Indigenously, Israel could well have been able to design a relatively simple attack and CAS aircraft, but when the requirements for the Lavi were increased, so was the amount of expertise Israel lacked in designing and developing such an aircraft. Which were Pratt and Whitney PW1120 engines; graphite epoxy composite materials; electronic countermeasures (ECM) parts; radar-warning receivers and their logarithms; wide-angle, heads-up display; programmable signal-processor emulator; flight-control computer; single-crystal turbine technology; and computer and airframe system.
The Lavi used US technology. But that’s not the point. The design of the airplane was Israeli, and that’s why we can sell it, but not sell PW1120s, composite materials technology (even though we are doing this today without the US’s help, and even for F-15s and F-16s worldwide, and not only for the F-16I and other Israeli F-16s), probably not ECM even though the Lavi’s were Israeli designed and US-Israeli built, wide angle HUDs that aren’t in the J-10 and the list goes on.
The point is that the design of the Lavi was indigenous. US technology that was in the Lavi’s production isn’t relavent since no more than 3 Lavis were produced and the J-10 doesn’t have it.
Let’s get to the topic, the J-10B, not the Lavi’s history.
ErezMaybe your English is too terrible to comprehend the sly, sneaky tone of Erez’s racism.
🙁
There is a huge difference between what you say I say and what I actually say.
You say I think the Chinese are capable of nothing, and therefore are copying.
But remember that Israel also copied the Mirage 5, does that makes us incapable? it doesn’t.
You say I think the Chinese are an incapable people, and I say the Chinese industry had a past of copying designs and redesigning designs. That’s it. I have no idea how you concluded from that that I’m racist.
This is an absolute embarassment. Erez doesn’t represent the Israeli people or government. He is an individual racist and in fact has repeatedly hinted that the Israeli government is lying to the US by selling the Lavi to China when it had stated outright that it hasn’t.
So when we sold China the Phyton-3 we didn’t asked the US to do so. And why?
Because it’s our design, just like the Lavi. In the Lavi we did used some US technology and of course money, but the design itself is 100% Israeli. How we made this design into a real airplane is another thing.
We don’t hear that the Lavi was funded by the US and based on the F16. Atleast the Japanese DF got one in service. Erez thinks that Israel did it all alone and now China copied it… I do not believe one sided views.
Did I said that?
I did not!
The Lavi was funded 60% by the US.
And I did explained why the Lavi isn’t based upon the F-16.
Secondly, the Lavi is a failed Israeli project, while the J10 is a successful Chinese project. The Lavi may have flown briefly but ultimately it was cancelled and therefore, it’s a failure. Anytime a project is cancelled, it is a failure. To say a successful project is entirely based or was dependent upon a failed project is illogical.
Not this time. The Lavi project has failed, but not the Lavi’s technologies and not the Lavi fighter plane. Both the technologies and the plane were a success that was demonstrated on the Lavi TD. That’s the damn reason they built it in first place two years after the project was cancelled.
Oh yes, another thing. I happened to know the guy who did the structural diagrams of the J-10. He stated when he first posted it that he modified a Lavi diagram to make his J-10 diagram.
If only you showed up before:(
China can now be said to have reached the point of indigenous development with the FC-1 and other current projects.
I don’t agree. I believe that both the FC-1 and the J-10 are one step before being indigenous. However, the next generation of fighters, as the XXJ for example, will be indigenous.
Then at what boundary do we define something as indigenous or not? In the broadest sense, all planes fly because they utilised the same principle of air flowing under the wing cause pressure differences. Does that mean all planes are not indigenous because their designers didnt use another way of keeping it airborne? Where does one make the difference between a modifiacation of a certain idea and a different idea with similar properties?
For me, indigenous means taking a blank paper and start drawing. Not taking existing plans and redesign them, no matter how hard will it be. The J-10 project IMO is a successful redesign project. That makes me give the Chinese all the respect they deserve. But I won’t call the J-10 indigenous.
Erezdirtyharry, thank you for the kind words:)
I like that
Just like I remove my Fiat logo of my car and stick a mercedes symbol over and telling people I drive mercedes!
LOL…
Whether the Israelis know anything about F16 during they design the Lavi, I am not sure, but I believe Erez ‘s claim. Because the Lavi was on the drawing board already in mid 1970s soon after Kfir went into IDFAF, in those days IDFAF were interested with F15s.The F16s went into service was because Iran’s revolution, those plane ordered by the IIAF were sanctioned and went to Israel early than expected.So how do they know much of the F16s? By the way Ronald Regan kill ed the project was because the Lavi may causing rivary to F16s’dominance, how can the General Dynamics so generously asisting such a rival to their own,it wasnt their interests.But the engine indeed was benefited from USA.
Again, thanks for your support.
So what did the Lavi had to do with the F-16?
I don’t know. I think it had his influence on the Lavi in a later stage, when they decided to use a sub model of the F100, the PW1120, about two-three years after the starting of the project. The F-16’s intake performs very well at high Alpha angles, and the Lavi, being canard-delta, needed this kind of an intake. It is smaller than the F-16’s and a bit changed to lower the radar signature, but other than that we can assume that the IAI workers knew about these qualities of the F-16’s intake and applied them on the Lavi.
But it’s not true to say the Lavi was based over the F-16. As you and I said, the Lavi was designed before we had F-16s in the mid 70s, as a concept model for the Arye fighter plane, that was cancelled due to the arriving of the F-15 to the Israeli Air Force, until 1979-1980 when it was decided to develop a small fighter plane, and the IAI choose this concept (number 33) that was developed to be the Lavi.
To conclude my opinions.
1) The J-10 is based over the Lavi.
2) Israel has assisted and maybe assisting with the J-10 project.
3) The J-10 is a major redesign project, a very succesful was. China has overcomed all the problems in this process. Way to go China:)
Have fun with the lion;)
Erez15 years old, and smarter than you.
These are simple facts.
From that site of yours:
“Around mid-day on Thursday 16 September 1982, a unit of approximately 150 Israeli-allied Phalangists entered the first camp. For the next 40 hours members of the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the encircled and sealed camps. The estimate of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) to 3,500. The victims and survivors of the massacres have never been deemed entitled to a formal investigation of the tragedy, since Israel’s Kahan Commission did not have a judicial mandate and was not backed up by legal force.”
There. It was these Phalangist militia forces, not IDF.
ErezWe gave them these weapons for self defence. Everyone was killing everyone in Lebanon in that time and even now. We had no way to know thay will kill these Arabs.
ErezPLA you are forgetting that their very own leader has a war crime record and is wanted by the international court.
mavaustin, I think you forgot that the killers in Sabra and Shatila were Christians arabs. The only thing the IDF did wrong is not keeping an eye on these Falangot.
The IDF gave them weapons, yes, but not for these uses.
And Sharon wasn’t even in the IDF then, he was the Defence Minister.
Erezmavaustin, I still want to know what was so funny.
ErezLOL…………
What’s so funny Mr.Mavaustin?:mad:
ErezOkay Erez, I remember that you are only 16.
And since this is a new year and you’re a kid who could learn to be a better person as you grow up, I will give you break.
You might not know what 1 billion Chinese are capable of but I will tell you what this ONE Chinese speaking now is capable of.
I am capable of verbally beating every last drop of racism out of you. So you better be good from now on.
That’s right, I don’t know. So show me. Help me to learn.
I gave up convincing you I’m not racist. It doesn’t work. I was learning to respect people by what they do. Most of what the Chinese industry did so far doesn’t make me feel much respect to them. And it’s not because they’re Chinese, not at all. It’s because China has some catching up to do with aviation.
ErezAnd BTW
If they did not approve and the Israeli government said they didn’t sell the Lavi which the US had asked them not to THEN there is no chance that the J-10 ever came from the Lavi.
I don’t care about the Americans. It’s our design. Some of the technology was American and selling it is wrong, but not the design which is Israeli, if you like it or not.
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