ErezEvery ‘solution’ so far offered involves some vital element of the nuclear programme being supplied by another nation, and so making Iran suseptable to sanctions and embargos. And those same ‘intelligence’ bodies also said Saddam had WMD.
If Iran truly wanted nuclear energy, it could have got it. No one undermines Iran’s right for nuclear energy. Their refusal to accept the very thing they supposedly ask is in itself worrying.
And when did Iran threaten to exterminate Israel? Did any Iranian offical EVER say that Iran will exterminate Israel?
Some of their official statements are here:
http://www.memri.org/iran.html
Otherwise, Google is your friend.Ha, and the fact that Israel was able to proveil conventionaly had nothing to do with the decision not to resort to nukes. How gullable do you take everyone for? :rolleyes:
Why would Israel need nukes at all if it will never ever use them? :rolleyes:
Israel was on the brink of defeat. Especially in the early days of the war, most Israeli officials didn’t believe Israel’s ability to win the war conventionally.
And you have sources to back this up? Because I have never seen anything that suggests Israel have nuclear weapons anywhere near that early.
Well, according to Global Security, the reactor in Dimona has been active since 1964. The way from that to a bomb is short. So, let’s say that Israel seems to have nuclear weapons for about 40 years.
Thats a good one. 😀 Balance…haha. So what overwhelming superiority does the ‘Arab side’ have conventionally that require Israeli nuclear weapons to balance?
Look at the Middle East map and see for yourself:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/MiddleEast.png
.
ErezSo you don’t believe Iran when they say they don’t want nukes, but you do beleive them when their president says Israel should be ‘wipped off the map’?
Yes, and especially since they were offered every kind of solution you could think of that could enable them to have nuclear energy without the possibility of creating nuclear weapons and they refused. I think that most intelligence bodies in the world agree that Iran is on **** way for the bomb.
As if Israel has never made a bluff and no Israeli polition has ever talked taugh to win support from the hardliners. Plenty of nations have threatened similar things to other nations in far more direct and overt ways before.
Israel has never threatened to exterminate another country, and I don’t remember many nations in modern history that threatened other nations to wipe them off the map – except for the worst kind of nations.
As for Iran having the ability to carry out its ‘threats’, well so what? Ever heard of the term MAD and nuclear deterrence?
Yes, I’ve heard about them, and they worked when two responsible nations were involved. But this time we have one nation with the mentality of a suicide bomber – they don’t care to die and kill all of their citizens as well, as long as they manage to destroy Israel. I also don’t usually trust nations whose leaders claim to be following God’s direct orders.
The fact of the matter is that the only time nuclear weapons has been used in anger was when the victim did not posses nukes. And ask yourself this, with only Israel possessing nukes in the ME, had the Israeli army been crushed in battle by a united arab coalition force and that force was then heading into Israel, would the IDF hesitate before ordering the use of nukes against the advancing enemy?
We were pretty close to that in 1973 – being attacked by a coalition of Arab armies, with the IDf caught completely by surprise. In the worst hours of the war, when everyone was sure that a second holocaust is coming to Israel (that’s how they described it, the destruction of the third Temple) the Israeli government almost used the nuclear option – and yet they didn’t. Why? because they were responsible enough to know that if they’ll use nukes on the Arabs, the USSR will defend them with nukes, and then the US will have to nuke the USSR – meaning the end of the world. Israel has demonstrated its responsiblity to hold nukes.
Introducing nuclear weapons into a hitherto nuclear-free region is a major destablising factor, especially so if the neighbours in that region dislike each other or are on the brink of war. But once nuclear weapons have been introduced into such a region, additional nuclear powers are far more likely to bring stability then nuclear war.
Israel doesn’t like Iran or Egypt or anyone else in the ME having nukes because it has so far benefited enourously from being the only nuclear power on the block, and its generals and politions dispise loosing that proivilage and having to actually thing about the consequences of its actions instead of just doing whatever the hell they like.
Israel is thought to have nuclear weapons for the past 45 years or so – that didn’t stop the Arabs from attacking Israel, in a number of wars and between them. They only do so because they know Israel won’t just nuke them after being attacked. So in what way has Israel benefited from its nuclear weapons?
The only reason Israel has nukes is to balance the Arab and Israeli power – not to get an edge over the Arab side.
.
ErezSo you don’t believe Iran when they say they don’t want nukes, but you do beleive them when their president says Israel should be ‘wipped off the map’?
Yes, and especially since they were offered every kind of solution you could think of that could enable them to have nuclear energy without the possibility of creating nuclear weapons and they refused. I think that most intelligence bodies in the world agree that Iran is on **** way for the bomb.
As if Israel has never made a bluff and no Israeli polition has ever talked taugh to win support from the hardliners. Plenty of nations have threatened similar things to other nations in far more direct and overt ways before.
Israel has never threatened to exterminate another country, and I don’t remember many nations in modern history that threatened other nations to wipe them off the map – except for the worst kind of nations.
As for Iran having the ability to carry out its ‘threats’, well so what? Ever heard of the term MAD and nuclear deterrence?
Yes, I’ve heard about them, and they worked when two responsible nations were involved. But this time we have one nation with the mentality of a suicide bomber – they don’t care to die and kill all of their citizens as well, as long as they manage to destroy Israel. I also don’t usually trust nations whose leaders claim to be following God’s direct orders.
The fact of the matter is that the only time nuclear weapons has been used in anger was when the victim did not posses nukes. And ask yourself this, with only Israel possessing nukes in the ME, had the Israeli army been crushed in battle by a united arab coalition force and that force was then heading into Israel, would the IDF hesitate before ordering the use of nukes against the advancing enemy?
We were pretty close to that in 1973 – being attacked by a coalition of Arab armies, with the IDf caught completely by surprise. In the worst hours of the war, when everyone was sure that a second holocaust is coming to Israel (that’s how they described it, the destruction of the third Temple) the Israeli government almost used the nuclear option – and yet they didn’t. Why? because they were responsible enough to know that if they’ll use nukes on the Arabs, the USSR will defend them with nukes, and then the US will have to nuke the USSR – meaning the end of the world. Israel has demonstrated its responsiblity to hold nukes.
Introducing nuclear weapons into a hitherto nuclear-free region is a major destablising factor, especially so if the neighbours in that region dislike each other or are on the brink of war. But once nuclear weapons have been introduced into such a region, additional nuclear powers are far more likely to bring stability then nuclear war.
Israel doesn’t like Iran or Egypt or anyone else in the ME having nukes because it has so far benefited enourously from being the only nuclear power on the block, and its generals and politions dispise loosing that proivilage and having to actually thing about the consequences of its actions instead of just doing whatever the hell they like.
Israel is thought to have nuclear weapons for the past 45 years or so – that didn’t stop the Arabs from attacking Israel, in a number of wars and between them. They only do so because they know Israel won’t just nuke them after being attacked. So in what way has Israel benefited from its nuclear weapons?
The only reason Israel has nukes is to balance the Arab and Israeli power – not to get an edge over the Arab side.
.
ErezSo, is that the Israeli people or regime?
Care to give some examples of things the Iran has DONE that is ‘irrational, stupid and insane’?
Both.
It’s not why they have done, it’s what they threat to do. And will be able to do, given nukes.
Yeah, the Lebanese surely threatened to invade Israel in 1982, right?
No, but northern Israel was attacked for years by rockets from Lebanon shot by terrorists. The Lebanese military, already falling apart, wasn’t able to control southern Lebanon, and the idea to invade Lebanon was just in order to push the terrorists away from the Israeli border and settlements. The rest of that war, which completely ended only 18 years later, was a complete mistake. The Lebanese were in their own mud and we happily ran into it. Israel went for one war (Lebanon) and one major operation (Kadesh, 1956), after being attacked by terrorists, out of choice.
ErezSo, is that the Israeli people or regime?
Care to give some examples of things the Iran has DONE that is ‘irrational, stupid and insane’?
Both.
It’s not why they have done, it’s what they threat to do. And will be able to do, given nukes.
Yeah, the Lebanese surely threatened to invade Israel in 1982, right?
No, but northern Israel was attacked for years by rockets from Lebanon shot by terrorists. The Lebanese military, already falling apart, wasn’t able to control southern Lebanon, and the idea to invade Lebanon was just in order to push the terrorists away from the Israeli border and settlements. The rest of that war, which completely ended only 18 years later, was a complete mistake. The Lebanese were in their own mud and we happily ran into it. Israel went for one war (Lebanon) and one major operation (Kadesh, 1956), after being attacked by terrorists, out of choice.
ErezFrom my observations, it would seem that ‘we’ would be defined as world oppinion, with a few exceptions like Israel. As examplified by the political debate ranging from Iraq to Iran to NK, and from various oppinion polls conducted by some newspapers which showed that most people in most nations saw America as a major threat to world peace.
Israel doesn’t think that the Iranian people aren’t rational and intelligent, it thinks that the Iranian regime is irrentional and stupid, let alone insane.
ErezFrom my observations, it would seem that ‘we’ would be defined as world oppinion, with a few exceptions like Israel. As examplified by the political debate ranging from Iraq to Iran to NK, and from various oppinion polls conducted by some newspapers which showed that most people in most nations saw America as a major threat to world peace.
Israel doesn’t think that the Iranian people aren’t rational and intelligent, it thinks that the Iranian regime is irrentional and stupid, let alone insane.
Erez15 regiments, indeed that’s a small number!
I think you also agree with me and will teach PII that Israel is a very small country, both demographically and in land area and can NOT sustain heavy casualities, imagine what would happen to any government that takes Israel to a war were it loses 1000 dead men and say 100 POWs, Israel is ready to destroy the whole of Gaza just to get back one POW for god’s sake.
there’s is also the fact that Syria is NOT a desert … so no PII Syrian troops won’t be acting like Iraqis in 1991, the fight they will put up is something you never dreamt of, even in worst scenario case and the number of hills allowing flank shots at Israeli tanks will show you a heavy toll on tanks and APCs in a land advance.
I’m ready to pet any Israeli government would fall much sooner than the 30km line 😛 .
According to this, you have 3 Special forces regiments:
“The special forces division has three regiments. It is not clear if a formal divisional headquarters exists or if for the sake of simplicity the three regiments have just been lumped together. “
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/army.htm
But let’s not even go there – you don’t seriously claim that your special forces could fight the entire Israeli army aren’t you?
Israel is a small country in demography and land area. A small country that reached 30km from Damascus when it was smaller both in numbers and land area.
We are willing to do a lot for the kidnapped soldier not because one soldier more or less means Israel’s destruction, but because unlike some people in this region, for us life are sacred – not death.
Syria is indeed not entirely desert – it’s about 60% desert. Of course, most of the population is located in the other 40%.
Let me remind you that Israel is also a land of hills and mountains, and let’s not forget the Golan – which is mountainous as well, and was conquered by Israel even before the arrival of weapons especially designed for this terrain, like the Merkava. So do you think that Israel couldn’t fight Syria because of its geography?
mms://video.nrg.co.il/lib/2004/news/mark4.wmv
Erez15 regiments, indeed that’s a small number!
I think you also agree with me and will teach PII that Israel is a very small country, both demographically and in land area and can NOT sustain heavy casualities, imagine what would happen to any government that takes Israel to a war were it loses 1000 dead men and say 100 POWs, Israel is ready to destroy the whole of Gaza just to get back one POW for god’s sake.
there’s is also the fact that Syria is NOT a desert … so no PII Syrian troops won’t be acting like Iraqis in 1991, the fight they will put up is something you never dreamt of, even in worst scenario case and the number of hills allowing flank shots at Israeli tanks will show you a heavy toll on tanks and APCs in a land advance.
I’m ready to pet any Israeli government would fall much sooner than the 30km line 😛 .
According to this, you have 3 Special forces regiments:
“The special forces division has three regiments. It is not clear if a formal divisional headquarters exists or if for the sake of simplicity the three regiments have just been lumped together. “
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/army.htm
But let’s not even go there – you don’t seriously claim that your special forces could fight the entire Israeli army aren’t you?
Israel is a small country in demography and land area. A small country that reached 30km from Damascus when it was smaller both in numbers and land area.
We are willing to do a lot for the kidnapped soldier not because one soldier more or less means Israel’s destruction, but because unlike some people in this region, for us life are sacred – not death.
Syria is indeed not entirely desert – it’s about 60% desert. Of course, most of the population is located in the other 40%.
Let me remind you that Israel is also a land of hills and mountains, and let’s not forget the Golan – which is mountainous as well, and was conquered by Israel even before the arrival of weapons especially designed for this terrain, like the Merkava. So do you think that Israel couldn’t fight Syria because of its geography?
mms://video.nrg.co.il/lib/2004/news/mark4.wmv
ErezI really like what SOC said, ” if you just look at it on paper ” .
believe it or not, Israel would’ve eaten us alive if they were sure they can, obviously they know it will be more costy that anything, just imagine 2000 gun barells and 400 MLRSs ready at all times of day to open fire at Israeli positions in Golan not to mention Syria’s stratigic missile arsenal, the war is not going to be airial war only … people should look at the whole picture, Syria can hurt Israel real bad and Israel knows it very well, this is NOT the crampy crowded not suitable at all Bekaa Valley, we are talking about something completely different here!
Here are Syria’s strong point:
1) Trained and equipped commando units, who can put up a good fight and cause damage. Their problem is numbers – there aren’t enough of them, just a couple of units.
2) Because of Israel’s air superiority, the Syrians turned their financial focus from aircraft to missiles. That is why while their airforce is falling a part, they field more and more missiles, directed at Israeli civil and military targets.
The commandos can be wiped off eventually, and while the missiles could cause damage (even after a preemptive strike, since there are a lot of them), they too could eventually be destroyed by the Israeli AF. Then the Syrians basically got nothing – an army with no equipemt for soldiers without training, an airforce whose best fighter planes are a couple of rather old MiG-29s, but mostly oldies but goldies like the MiG-21, a navy not even threatening the Israeli navy or coast and so on.
So yeah, I agree with Kfadrat (amazingly!) that Syria could damage Israel, but in the end of the day I think that even he knows which army will be 30km from Damascus (again).
ErezI really like what SOC said, ” if you just look at it on paper ” .
believe it or not, Israel would’ve eaten us alive if they were sure they can, obviously they know it will be more costy that anything, just imagine 2000 gun barells and 400 MLRSs ready at all times of day to open fire at Israeli positions in Golan not to mention Syria’s stratigic missile arsenal, the war is not going to be airial war only … people should look at the whole picture, Syria can hurt Israel real bad and Israel knows it very well, this is NOT the crampy crowded not suitable at all Bekaa Valley, we are talking about something completely different here!
Here are Syria’s strong point:
1) Trained and equipped commando units, who can put up a good fight and cause damage. Their problem is numbers – there aren’t enough of them, just a couple of units.
2) Because of Israel’s air superiority, the Syrians turned their financial focus from aircraft to missiles. That is why while their airforce is falling a part, they field more and more missiles, directed at Israeli civil and military targets.
The commandos can be wiped off eventually, and while the missiles could cause damage (even after a preemptive strike, since there are a lot of them), they too could eventually be destroyed by the Israeli AF. Then the Syrians basically got nothing – an army with no equipemt for soldiers without training, an airforce whose best fighter planes are a couple of rather old MiG-29s, but mostly oldies but goldies like the MiG-21, a navy not even threatening the Israeli navy or coast and so on.
So yeah, I agree with Kfadrat (amazingly!) that Syria could damage Israel, but in the end of the day I think that even he knows which army will be 30km from Damascus (again).
ErezJust out of curiosity, I would like to hear a real zionist (from your personal signature I assume you are one) giving his version why is it justifyed to take palestinian lands and drove them out of their homes, theat them like cattle and then wonder why they make terrorist attacks agaisnt Israel??
You might want to read some of the pages in the following discussion for answers:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58020
ErezJust out of curiosity, I would like to hear a real zionist (from your personal signature I assume you are one) giving his version why is it justifyed to take palestinian lands and drove them out of their homes, theat them like cattle and then wonder why they make terrorist attacks agaisnt Israel??
You might want to read some of the pages in the following discussion for answers:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58020
Ereznow now, keep the bad language back as each one of us most certainly has loads of them names about the other side, ok, keep it civilized!!
Sorry, but terrorists everywhere ARE sub-humans. Not Arabs, not Palestinians, not Syrians – terrorists. Sub-humans.
now can you explain what’s ” sovereign Israeli territory ” ???? this IS BS and you know it IS, there is NO such thing as a sovereign Israeli territory, 60 years ago there was no such thing as Israel on the first place!
I rest my case. A person like you will describe an attack in the heart of Tel Aviv as legitimate, as it is, after all, “an occupied territory”. You are the kind of person who will never accept any kind of peace in this land. The only peace you and those like you know is the destruction of Israel and the creation of Palestine instead of it – not next to it.
Peace will only happen here when every side will acknowledge the other’s right for the land, which is a homeland for two nation. As such, it has to be partitioned between the two. You are one of the many people who still don’t get it – we have an equal right for this land. Until people like you in the Arab world won’t get it, we’ll continue to kill and be killed.
and to add to that this land where the military post is was occupied in 67 from Egypt, how dare you call it your’s???
No – this outpost is located in Kibbutz Kerem-Shalom – inside the pre-1967 Israeli territory. It is inside the 1949 cease fire line.
HA HA HA HA HA … you really believe this BS your media is loading you with??? well take this:
http://sana.org/eng/22/2006/06/28/43891.htm
and this:
http://sana.org/eng/22/2006/06/28/43940.htm
the president was in Damascus recieving the envoy of the Jordanian King and the Speaker of Lebanese parlement at the same time your stupid media claims he was in Lattakia !!!
same BS happened last time you guys claimed this, your media claimed he was in Lattakia watching the SUPPOSEDLY over flying aircraft while he was in Damascus recieving Saudi – then – crown prince Abdullah!
your arrogance makes you as blind as a wall could be!
The raid was conducted early this morning, probably before dawn – if you have a picture of Assad in his pyjamas in Damascus, I’d like to see it. All of the reports you showed were from the evening.
Ereznow now, keep the bad language back as each one of us most certainly has loads of them names about the other side, ok, keep it civilized!!
Sorry, but terrorists everywhere ARE sub-humans. Not Arabs, not Palestinians, not Syrians – terrorists. Sub-humans.
now can you explain what’s ” sovereign Israeli territory ” ???? this IS BS and you know it IS, there is NO such thing as a sovereign Israeli territory, 60 years ago there was no such thing as Israel on the first place!
I rest my case. A person like you will describe an attack in the heart of Tel Aviv as legitimate, as it is, after all, “an occupied territory”. You are the kind of person who will never accept any kind of peace in this land. The only peace you and those like you know is the destruction of Israel and the creation of Palestine instead of it – not next to it.
Peace will only happen here when every side will acknowledge the other’s right for the land, which is a homeland for two nation. As such, it has to be partitioned between the two. You are one of the many people who still don’t get it – we have an equal right for this land. Until people like you in the Arab world won’t get it, we’ll continue to kill and be killed.
and to add to that this land where the military post is was occupied in 67 from Egypt, how dare you call it your’s???
No – this outpost is located in Kibbutz Kerem-Shalom – inside the pre-1967 Israeli territory. It is inside the 1949 cease fire line.
HA HA HA HA HA … you really believe this BS your media is loading you with??? well take this:
http://sana.org/eng/22/2006/06/28/43891.htm
and this:
http://sana.org/eng/22/2006/06/28/43940.htm
the president was in Damascus recieving the envoy of the Jordanian King and the Speaker of Lebanese parlement at the same time your stupid media claims he was in Lattakia !!!
same BS happened last time you guys claimed this, your media claimed he was in Lattakia watching the SUPPOSEDLY over flying aircraft while he was in Damascus recieving Saudi – then – crown prince Abdullah!
your arrogance makes you as blind as a wall could be!
The raid was conducted early this morning, probably before dawn – if you have a picture of Assad in his pyjamas in Damascus, I’d like to see it. All of the reports you showed were from the evening.
Sign In
