sheytanelkebirHere is a somewhat dramatized version of the engagement:
http://youtu.be/zmYkHKGRXVA?t=13m15s
Here is some video of the second of the two Mig-25 kills. (note the part about afterburner)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ5N58z9UUM
Of course this didn’t actually happen.
what didn’t happen? missile shot by F15 and exploded? no problems. Iraqi MiG25 fell out of the sky? show it… 😉
little missile exploding in proximity to fighter jet does not equal kill 😉 especially not a MiG25.
anyway. lets not derail this thread. the MiG31 is a worthy successor to the 25… if the R77 is integrated onto it, as well as the R37M it is a FORMIDABLE interceptor even against 5th Generation attackers.
sheytanelkebirIf you’re under orders not to endanger your aircraft, then aggressiveness may not be permitted, & you do the best you can within those constraints.
You may be able to think of more, if you try.
Note that if the aim of the USAF in the 1990s (post-war) was to destroy Iraqi aircraft, it’d have been bombing bases, not chasing fighters around the sky.
surely just activating tracking mode on the fighter’s radar, or even a CW signal should suffice without wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars a pop?
sheytanelkebirSo did the US. :rolleyes:
Besides, do I really need to point out that the Iraqi government proved itself to be… less than reliable in its reporting?
The most charitable thing I can say here is that you just don’t know what you are talking about. The US has been continually developing not only the AMRAAM, but its fighters as well. This doesn’t indicate a deficiency as their performance has been very well established on many occasions. It is more a reflection of the US’s desire and ability to maintain its forces at the cutting edge of what technology will allow.
weapons of mass destruction anyone? incubator babies? probably better not talk too much about “reliability” “honesty” and such frivolities 😉
sheytanelkebirI suggest some research. All three Mig-25 kills by the USAF are very well documented, the one killed by AMRAAM was not on a ferry flight, and the Iraqis were most certainly not “roaming the southern no-fly zone with impunity.”
Iraqis disagree on this point. They count their planes.
Let me appeal to reason for a moment. If the USAF had actually found that the Mig-25 was untouchable because it was just sooo fast and flew sooo high… why wouldn’t the USAF have developed its own similar aircraft? Certainly the technology is/was available if they thought a need existed…
The AMRAAMs went through many iterations during the 1990s… far more than would have happened had the original AMRAAMs been effective. And yes, Iraqi MiG25s and MiG23s were flying in the southern no fly zone DAILY, and the 25s flew MANY TIMES into Saudi and Kuwaiti airspace, they were not intercepted once, except the early shot with a “new” AMRAAM (which was against a plane flying inside Iraq not on an intercept mission).
Thing is, whilst the MiG25s were quite “untouchable” in most situations, their weapons systems were essentially obsolete and most MiG25s were leaving service among the small number of operators that used them… so the US pumping money into such a “miniscule” threat would have been silly… I would say the ineffectiveness of AMRAAMs against MiG23s was far more worrisome to the americans, causing the non-stop development of AMRAAMs throughout the 90s… but I think that many of the problems attributed to the AMRAAM vs MiG23 were due to the US pilots misuse of the missiles by firing them at far too long a distance from the Iraqi aircraft. Had the US pilots been more aggressive they would have surely destroyed many Iraqi MiG23s during the 1990s…
sheytanelkebirAs a recon aircraft the Mig-25 proved survivable, but we can’t evaluate whether it was accomplishing its mission based simply on its ability to escape.
During the Iran-Iraq War the Mig-25 did prove capable in its primary interceptor role, but a number were lost in combat to AIM-7 and AIM-54 missiles, proving beyond any doubt that they were not capable of operating with impunity even against 1970s era Iranian aircraft and missiles.
During the 1991 Persian Gulf War the Mig-25 was ineffective. In a limited number of sorties Mig-25s achieved one kill, and lost two aircraft. Once again the Mig-25 was proven to be vulnerable to the AIM-7.
In the engagements that followed the Gulf War, which absolutely count, another Mig-25 was brought down, this time by an F-16 armed with an AIM-120A.
In fact only one MiG25 was ever shot down by the western alliance (the one with the AMRAAM) and that was because the MiG25 was on a “ferry flight” from one base to another. For the next 10 years the MiG25 would roam the southern “no fly zone” (oh, even flying into Saudi Arabia and Kuwait) with impunity and have many more futile attempts at shooting it down with AMRAAM and AIM54s. The most dangerous weapons against the MiG25 is usually a technical failure that makes it slow down / reduce altitude… and that’s pretty much how the iranians shot down the 4-5 MiG25PDS/RB during 7 years of non-stop combat… still they flew many thousands of missions without fail into dense air defences (and WITHOUT supporting AEW / SIGINT / SEAD etc…)
Hence the viability of using high altitude / high speed fighter / bomber / recon plane is valid even in the era of stealth IMHO. Had Syria obtained their 8 MiG31Es and got some R37M on them… they would have been formidable against Israel, having the ability to harass israeli planes as they were taking off from their bases whilst being beyond the range of their CAPs in the air… not to mention the effect on the operations of Israeli AEW / SIGINT aircraft (forcing them to fly further away from Syria and reducing their coverage over Syrian airspace), which gives a “breather” for syrian aircraft to operate more easily and reduce the SA of the Israeli planes slightly.
sheytanelkebirI still believe there is still bitter feelings between the people of Iraq and Israel having the majority of the current Government being heavily Shia based that shares common interest and ideology to Iran.
The daawa party (who rule Iraq today) left Iran in 1982 because they disagreed with the khomeini regime. They have good relations with Iran now because its a large neighbour and we have to have good relations with them… in fact Iraq has stronger economic relations with Turkey (sunni) than with Iran and with Jordan (which receives Iraqi Aid and has an strategic alliance) and recently with Egypt (since Sisi came to power)… but yea, since Iraqis buy some iranian made cars and canned food they became Iranians! 😀
Let’s face it its because of Israel that Iraq today is nowhere near ME Superpower status if they would have been Nuclear then then any foreign invasion prior would have never ever taken place.
Iraq would have had that in 1992 had saddam not invaded Kuwait…
Iraq doesn’t take kind interest in being 2nd place in the region give them time I think they are going to regain their glory at some point. Going all Russia-China and obtaining Migs, J-10 or JH17 would be ideal with no restrictions or monkey missiles like the later US purchase.
Iraq of today is happy to have a strong deterrent capability… they are not interested at all in having a powerful offensive military as has been stated ad nauseum by iraqi officials and commanders…
Again I believe both Iraq and Iran shares a similar position when it comes to Israel.
Iran is hostile and arms hezbollah and organises holocaust denial conferences and makes anti-semitic TV series.
Iraq, erm… does none of the above, nor is there a popular “street level” anger against Israel… against palestinians yes, not against israel. 😉
Unlike the Sunnis where they believe their should be a two-state solution the Shias are a lot more aggressive and want that one-station solution instead. They are very quiet right now but once Iraq is at full strength you are going to see them start barking in the region again.
hmm… Sunnis in Iraq are the pan-arabists / pro-sunni pro-palestinians and the shias are the rabidly anti-palestinian who consider every palestinian to be a terrorist… yet erm, somehow people come up with the above?
Look. Iraqi shias consider the palestinians to be: saddam supporters (who killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis) and the palestinians have still not repented and still proudly hold up pictures of saddam, every palestinian you care to speak to will tell you the “shia and kurdish traitors deserve what saddam the hero did to them”. Not only that… after 2003 palestinian refugees became involved in terrorism killing thousands of Iraqi civilians… lets say the Iraqis who lost relatives (and that is a rather huge % of the population sadly) are not going to go to war for palestinians any time soon. Yet the narrative today by some, dare I say deranged, “pundits” (isn’t that what the americans call them) about an iraqi-iranian alliance against israel is LUDICROUS!!
If the pundits fear anything out of Iraq, it should be the tsunami wave of lawsuits that will come the USA’s way in the next 5-10 years.
sheytanelkebirJ-10 and the a stealth design from China to get a first strike capability against Israel.
what on earth for? Israel is not a threat to Iraq nor vice versa. The biggest threats to Iraq are neo-ottoman Turkey / Wahabi Saudi / neo-imperial Iran. Everything else is fluff. If only the israelis would go and attack Iran whilst we have a decent “excuse” not to intercept their warplanes it would be great… a conflagration involving the saudis vs iranians would be the icing on the cake.
sheytanelkebirI agree with this sooner or later the Sunni’s are going to want their country back they were the majority leading the former regime and were in full control of the AF and Army.
The current Government is very much Pro-Iranian having said that its easy for Iran to buy out corrupt politicians and do the bribe game. How much longer the Sunni’s are going to stand on the sideline without some control remains to be seen.
It could be worst like a Syria where divisions among the Army can break out and start clashing with one another over differences of ideology and religious sect.
Not going to happen. Iraq’s ethno-centric make up is :
-60% shia arab (in power)
-17% Sunni Kurd (self rule)
-22% Sunni Arab (in a “power sharing” with the shias above)
excluding the Kurds entirely from the list (since they are de-facto independent) would make it:
-70% Shia Arab
-26% Sunni Arab
+ now most of the new generation crews, officers, soldiers are from the south… so even a “military coup” is not possible.
thus you see most sunni-arab Iraqis desperately trying to emigrate from Iraq, and another large “angry young” chunk in prison. Once the Universal ID card is out it’ll make the security much stronger and further destroying any chances of a “return to power”. With every passing day, things are slipping further and further away… hence nowadays even the most ardent sunni-arab chauvinists are “demanding” autonomy for Anbar/Ninawa (Salahuddin seem to prefer staying with sugar-daddy Iraq)… whereas just 6-7 years ago they would deny that the “shroog” (derogatory term for southern Iraqis) are even human beings let alone the majority of the populace. The way things are going, in a few years they’ll be happy to be given a % of Southern Iraqi oil and port proceeds to live on.
The “real” event of 2003 was the overthrowing of a sunni minority order in Iraq that has ruled over Iraq since Ottoman times, the US completely destroyed that order’s military and security infrastructure, and built a brand new one (with a sprinkling of the old) out of the natural population majority. As the years pass by and the “new” military gets trained up and the remains of the “old guard” retire, the issue will exacerbate further. The old “order” was always under threat of being overthrown, since it was a minority order and most of its economic resources were within its “colonies” (southern Iraqi oil fields and ports), whereas the “new order” is not threatened at all… since the only thing the proponents of the old order could possibly pull off would be to secede from Iraq (and commit economic hara-kiri, but the centuries old chauvinist attitudes still precludes them from admitting to themselves were their “wealth” derives from).
which is why the Chinese, Russians and British are investing billions into Iraqi oil EVERY YEAR… whilst Exxon’s “lone ranger” US company has withdrawn.
sheytanelkebirmiG31 would be good for Canada 😀 shame that it won’t happen 🙁
sheytanelkebirits not fair to count Mig23 as a crappy cannon fodder aircraft because of Iran Iraq War, don’t forget the Iraq Airforce only had crappy monkey export version of Mig23 with that tiny little pathetic export radar and radome, if a real Soviet Air Force Grade Mig23bis with Mig23bis radar fire control system, decent missile warning system and ECM was involved in that war and flown by a well trained competent Soviet pilot and flown in adequate sized groups then they would of been a force to be rekoned with and easily shot down many F14 as a skilled Mig23bis pilot could of easily outmaneuvered the sluggish AIM54 and counterattacked the F14
Iraqis had MiG23MF and MiG23ML… within a month of Iraqis recieving the MiG23ML it shot down an F14. Not bad going. You’re still regurgitating the iranian propaganda spread via the ACIG channel… 😉
In reality it was ground based air defences that were the biggest threats followed by MiG23ML and F4Es. Neither the MiG25 nor F14 played a “major” role. They were good planes, and played a “minor” role certainly.
sheytanelkebirdid pretty damn well.
Jalil Zandi shot down 11 aircraft in his F-14 which include Migs 21,23 and Mirage F-1 and Su-22.
Theres a few other Iranian F-14 aces with 6 kills.
I counted around 70-76 F-14 victories in Iran-Iraq war and 5 shot downs. ACIG claims up to 90.
most of those claims are “disputed” by new Iraqi numbers. But Iran’s lack of success is not down to the aircraft / weapon so much.
Iraq’s positive kill aircraft is their MiG-25.
no. It was the MiG23ML and Mirage F1 and MiG21.
what can we learn from the Iran-Iraq war?
that most of the “accepted wisdom” about it is not true.
that all the cannon fodder aircraft “MiG-21, F-5, Mirage F-1, and MiG-23” were lighter fighters and were the ones being shot down more than shooting down.
i guess this threw a wrench in Spey’s theories as the Mig-25 and F-14 were the successful types.
not really. The only saving grace for the MiG25 was its kinematic performance.
sheytanelkebirsome examples.
Balad airbase being upgraded to handle F16s
Tammuz Airbase (habbaniya) has become the army aviation college
Basra Airbase is being upgraded and expanded for use by army aviation
Large supply depots and logistics centres built in all the “operational commands”
In addition to the Taji “main factory”, each operational command now has a “medium field factory” for maintenance and repair, and each battalion has a repair and recovery section as well as logistics company.
tens of thousands of trucks have been imported for the army, including thousands of fuel tankers.
new air conditioned ammunition depots being setup across the country, and refurbishing of old ammunition dumps.
H3 airbase is being reconditioned for use by the new “Peninsula and Desert” operations command, including a helicopter base.
Air Defence polythechnic has been established in the last 2 years which is taking in hundreds of science and engineering graduates
Naval academy expanded, and the marine base in Umm qasr expanded with additional bases.
new military hospitals established in baghdad and other provinces.
12 dedicated SAR helos bought in addition to the 16 hueys which are SAR dedicated.
The Iraqi Airways fleet which will number over 70 aircraft by 2017 will have a secondary military transport mission.
plus many many more…
but still… an AN-2 can bomb Iraq at will!
sheytanelkebiryes. they will inevitably have a period where the air force / army aviation is manned by relatively inexperienced young crews (in the air and on the ground). They are trying to mitigate this by having a lot of foreign based training for all the lower end officers / technical staff (USA, Jordan, Italy, Australia, UK, France, Russia, Ukraine, Serbia etc…). There’s a pretty huge number of young iraqi crews being trained on everything from flying Mi28s to maintaining C130Js abroad right now…. similar scenario with the air defence guys, and the air defence command has been recruiting hundreds of engineering and science graduates straight out of university for the last 2 years… training them up in the new technical college for 2 years then sending them abroad for training.
in fact for anyone reading the weekly Iraqi Armed Forces magazine on their official website, you’d see that 50% of the news are about training, recruiting, specialist courses… and the rest is about building and refurbishing facilities, rebuilding armaments plants and logistics and supply chain. They’ve been working on these “unglamorous” bits for the last few years (which is one of the reasons they haven’t got many flashy weapons now).
sheytanelkebirthat’s their budget for armaments purchases not the overall defence budget. Armaments import is about 20-25% of overall defence budget (currently).
All their pilots now are “newbies”, the only place they still have some oldies is in army aviation, and they are instructors for MI17s only, the repair and overhaul facility for Mi17s is also run by “oldies”. But all the new types are manned by “fresh” students, kids who grew up with smartphones / playstations and PCs… i.e. far more suitable candidates to learn to operate modern weapons and systems.
sheytanelkebiras far as i know the mig-31 is not for exported ( same as F-22 )
yes it is available for export.
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