it would get shoot down because mig23 is very bad.
north vietnamese pilots is very good, so many aces come from there, but even in mig23 they will get shot down. look at history elsewhere.

Mig23 was very good for Iraq against Iran (got more kills than mirages or MiG25s)… and even in 1991 it did ok as an interceptor (was only shot down on ferry evacuation flights when it was armed with nothing more than drop tanks) 😉

The Ethiopians and Angolans didn’t complain about them either 😉

al waleed AB was demolished by the US after 2003. It is the closest Iraqi airbase to Israel after all… answers on a postcard. Same thing for the air defence command observation posts along the border with jordan – saudi arabia (one post every 5km)… post 2003 the US made sure that they were all destroyed.

it has nothing at all to do with any fantastically made up “underground shelters” or such like. Al Waleed spent most of the 1980s as an advanced combat training base for the air force.

PS. Al waleed AB was first attacked by Israel in 1967. so its actually gone through 4 wars (by 2003 it was abandoned).

A CATIC ref visited the commander of the iraqi air force and discussed the JF17 fighter and invited an iraqi team to inspect the aircraft.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=101846220&postcount=3257

Bishop F and Cooper T, 2003, Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat.

If the book is such wrong why nobody has been writing a right book since 2003 belying what was previously written?

There are such books, I sent you links to them. There are plenty more in Arabic.

Regarding the former Iraq General in the book he knows much more about the Tu 22 Blinder’s apparently than all us , since in the Soviet Union Air Bases for the Tu 22 Blinder the standard concrete runway had 3,000 m( 10,000 ft) long and 80 m( 240 ft) wide, and in the summer with temperature of 25ºC and maximum load takeoff were a critical factor in the mission, since Tu 22 took off with less than 50 m( 150 ft) to the runway end.

So at a temperature between 40ºC to 50ºC during the day in Oman the Tu 22 Blinder was still “taxiing” at the end of a runway with 2,300 m (6,900 ft) length with full load of the 92,000 Kg (200,560 lb).

The military logic assumes that first should be obtain the political consent to then study the technical feasibility to accomplish a mission.

However I agree too that such idea should have been abandoned after a second thought, and this has happened because even Iraq Air Force or Oman would not be able to prevent the retaliation from Iran Air Force with fighter-bombers F-4 Phantoms II and interceptors F-14 Tomcats with air tankers B 707 and B 747 to support the operation against Oman.

Oman was neutral in the war. What the general mentioned is simply one “idea” discussed by officers in a conversation! not even something the Iraqis planned or made any requests from Oman… just a CHAT THEY HAD OVER TEA!!!!! PS… I would expect the Iranian air force to have about the same capability of destroying the TU22 in Oman as they did to the TU22s in Iraq… i.e. none.

Kevin M. Woods, Williamson Murray, Elizabeth A. Nathan, Laila Sabara, Ana M. Venegas. SADDAM’S GENERALS
Perspectives of the Iran-Iraq War.

The facts had been mentioned collaborating for the Iraq offensive started on 22 September 1980, however the central question remains once the former Iraq General said that it were not foreseen in the attack plan against Iran any reaction from Iran Air Force in less than 48 hours after the start of the offensive by Iraq, though the counterattack from Iran on day 22 and the main counter-attack on 23 has demonstrated the failure in war planning from Iraq.

no. you are completely and utterly wrong. Iraqis neither said nor expected such a thing, already in august Iranian fighters were shooting at Iraqi aircraft near the border (shooting down a MiG21) and Iraqis shot down Iranian fighters in Early september which was bombing Iraq on the 8th September… the pilot of that Phantom was held by Iraq until 2003 as proof that Iran started the war against Iraqi in 8th September 1980, and the 22nd september was Iraq’s counterattack.

PS. Iraq’s attack was 98% on the ground. The “air war” was neither here nor there.

The central question would be why the Iraq War began the offensive on September 22, 1980 when the MiG 25RB/PDS were not operational despite had been ordered from Soviet Union in 1979 as following items: 12 Mil Mi 25 Hind, 10 II 76, 24 An 12, 48 Su-22M-3K, 104 MiG 23ML, 90 MiG 21 and MiG 24 25RB/PDS. Not to mention the 1000 SAM missiles (SA-2, SA-3 and SA-6).

1)If Iraq had been requesting the MiG 25PDS Foxbat since 1978 to face the F 14A Tomcat from Iran, why Iraq started the war before to receive the critical fighter Foxbat from Soviet Union?

“The victorious General first ensure the conditions for victory before starting the battle”

[RIGHT]General Sun Tzu – The Art of the War[/RIGHT]

Saddam was not military, however was surrounded by generals, and not all of them were Iraqis, so the failure was not due to lack of military knowledge of Saddam or his generals and advisers. However someone failed, since a war in eight years without winning side certainly would not be interest to both.

2)If this fails has been clear, so now the second question should be who failed?

You failed to read any books other than cooper/bishop.

hint. 99% of the “Iran Iraq war” was ON THE GROUND. neither the Iraqi nor Iranian air force made any decisive difference.

maurobaggio have you managed to open up the other texts I sent you (the ones that download as GetTRDOC and you have to append a .pdf to it manually… problem with US military ebook download system!).

By 1985 the Iran Air Force were weakened by the war which had been dragging on for nearly five years. Though the same was able to maintain balance with the Iraq Air Force, which had constantly been strengthened with new equipment’s and tactics along almost five years of war.

Iran’s fleet of 300+ BVR capable long range fighters didn’t do much against Iraq’s antiquated MiG21 / SU-20 / Hunter force in 1980… By 1985, Iraq was technologically still behind Iran in air power… but that was not reflected in operational use.

In general all of the main types of combat aircraft’s from Iran (F 4D/E, F 5E/F and F 14A ) had been recorded losses, but the most significant loss were still about to occur, since the lifetime of the air-air long range missile AIM 54A Phoenix were nearing the end in 1985.

most of the Iranian losses happened in the early years, against day-only WVR-only short ranged Iraqi fighters and SAMs.

Without the missiles AIM 54A the F 14A Tomcat would be equipped with only medium range AIM 7E Sparrow and would be overwhelmed by the MiG-25 Foxbat PDS from Iraq with its long-range missiles AA 6 Acrid, besides the MiG-25RB attack/reconnaissance would have leave way in strike missions against strategic targets in Iran.

Iraqis never had an issue with sending even MiG23BN to strike Iran… Tomcat or no tomcat.

In the same way that the supersonic bombers Tu 22 Blinder would be escorted by MiG 25 PDS from Iraq it could be able to crush the oil facilities on the Kharg island , where Iran exported most all of the its oil leading Iran to the collapse.

such a thing never happened…

As well as subsonic bombers H 6D (Chinese version of the Tu 16 Badger) equipped with anti ship missiles C 601 should be protected by MiG 25PDS could attack and sink the frigates and destroyers from Iranian Navy that would eventually escorting the oil tankers along the Persian Gulf.

Iraqi B6D bombers always flew WITHOUT ANY ESCORT. and only one was lost after many dozens of long range maritime attacks…

In the case of Tu 22 Blinder if this had receive those anti ship missiles with supersonic and long-range capabilities of the Kh 22 Kitchen’s, in that case the Iran Navy would be completely swept from the seas, allowing tactical aviation from Iraq to concentrate on sinking oil tankers with the same free-fall bombs.

ehm? neither side had the capability to stop shipping coming in. Neither the Iraqi nor iranian navies nor air forces could enforce any true “embargo”.

Despite the air cover from F 4D/E Phantom II and F 14A Tomcat for the convoys from Iran the anti ship missile AM 39 Exocet had become the main means from Iraq Air Force to defeat the Iran Navy, and the Exocet could be launched by fight bomber Super Entendard or after the Mirage F1EQ5, besides the Super Frelon helicopters.

no. The main means for fighting Iranian NAVY was by MiG21s carrying rocket pods and OSA-II boats firing silkworms…

The effectiveness of such attacks from Exocet was not starring as had happened in the War of Falklands on 1982, since the large tankers could resisted the damage caused by the ‘light’ warhead of 165 kg (360 lb) from subsonic AM 39 so much better than the medium-sized vessels such as destroyers from the Royal Navy in 1982.

wow! true indeed!

For oil tankers would be ideal employment of large subsonic missile C 601 with warhead of 513 kg (1120 lb) that could be launched by Xian H 6D, or supersonic and then the most expensive Kh 22 Kitchen launched by Tu 22 Blinder with warhead of 1000 kg (2180 lb) . In fact several oil tankers hit by AM 39 did not sink, and once repaired had returned to active allowing the continued export of oil from Iran during the War.

Dozens did sink… main effect though was increasing insurance premiums… neither side could effectively strangle the other.

Since that ships convoys had been protected by Phantoms and Tomcats there no favorable opportunity to strike with H 6D or Tu 22, or even about to strike with the fighter bomber ( MiG 23BK, Su 22M3K or Mirage F1Q) with free fall bombs that should be more effective than the Exocet, but the AM 39 Exocet at least gave at the Mirage F 1EQ5 the possibiliy to strike and escape from the escorts ships with SAM( Surface Air Missiles) or from Phantons and Tomcats, almost allways…

not true… most attacks were with free fall bombs from SU-22s.

To avoid detection by radar from escort ships from Iran Navy and missiles as SAM RIM 66 Standard that were equipped some Iranian ships, the Iraq fighter equipped with AM 39 Exocet had to fly at low altitude over the sea as the same way that Super Entendard from Argentine Navy made in 1982.

not necessary… most strike packages over the gulf were at medium altitude.

However on the Falklands War the Royal Navy had the Sea Harrier with only short-range missiles AIM 9L Sidewinder to protect the fleet, and this time lacked the F 4E Phantom II equipped with medium-range missiles AIM 7E Sparrow, or even the F 14A Tomcat with long-range missiles AIM 54A Phoenix giving coverage to the fleet with the NATO.

the F14s hardly came up to fight ever… except in a some mythical books uncorroborated by Iraqi numbers.

While the ships from Royal Navy Fleet dreaming about the Phantoms and Tomcats to protect them, the subsonic Sea Harrier only equipped with news short range missiles AIM 9P had faced the nightmare that were the threat from Argentine Air Force and its Navy Air Force to the Royal Navy Fleet. The highly effective all-aspect short range AIM 9P Sidewinder from Sea Harrier were borrowed by U.S. as emergency measure in 1982 because the war with 100 units delivered.

ok. but F14 / F4 without AWACS hardly protected Iran from anything (see “preying mantis”).. all it showed was that the Iraqis were incapable of concentrating sufficient firepower and bombing accuracy to wreck Iran’s economy… no need for F4 / F14.

Without the resources from oil exported the ailing economy from Iran would collapse as well as the capacity of maintaining military operations during the war with Iraq, which would certainly lead Iraq to victory .

not really.

Despite the priority of maintaining the already had been reduced stock of the missiles AIM 54A Phoenix in operation, in fact Iran failed to get on the “open market” same items that were critical for those missiles, and this was the thermal battery , since the depletion of useful life from this was responsible for getting the missile out of the operation.

yawn. stop obsessing about the “AIM-54” it really wasn’t particularly good…

The thermal battery were responsible for generating the power electricity had consumed from missile when its flew for the target, even though this item is not something new, however in the case of AIM 54 the level technology this item was advanced to this time, which led to the U.S. being only capable of producing the required standards for the AIM 54 Phoenix.

doubt it.

There weren’t similar items on the “open market”, at least in small dimensions to fit in the compact airframe of the AIM 54.The Phoenix were missiles with active radar and long range, which demanded a high power consumption, several times higher than that of a passive radar-guided missile (SARH) even larger as the SAM MIN 23 Hawk or SAM RIM 66 Standard .

ok, erm??

Thus emerged in Iran two programs designed to replenish the lack of AIM 54A Phoenix, one of these was to make compatible the missile system SAM MIN 23 Hawk for F 14A Tomcat, and the other was a missile from SAM system RIM 66 Standard to the F 4E Phantom II.

In case the SAM Hawk for the F 14A the program would be quite complex, since it were intended to transform the missile semi-active radar Hawk into active radar, since the idea was to “transplant” the active radar homing seeker of the “agonizing” AIM 54A Phoenix to the Hawk with dimensions compatible with a new thermal battery with larger seize, those would be available in the market in order to meet the high demand of electricity in the guidance system of the AIM 54A Phoenix long-range interceptions that would be impossible to fit into AIM 54 airframe . The Sky Hawk program would end in a hybrid between the Hawk and Phoenix.

no, those were just propaganda things for internal consumption…

Regarding SAM Standard for the F 4E Phantom II the program these were previous for the War, and was initiated by Israel with code-name Distant Thunder Program in conjunction with Iran in the late ’70s. Faced with the threat of the MiG-25 and Tu 22 equipped with powerfull ECM systems, the combination Phantom II and AIM 7E would not be effective, and the idea was to transform the missiles RIM 66 Standad to be launched by F 4E Phantom II, however beyond the previous SARH ( Semi Active Radar Homing) capability of the Standard would have addressing the anti radiation capability in the case of ECM( Eletronic Counter Measure) from enemy aircraft jammed the radar from Phantom.

eh? so how come they couldn’t handle TU16s and even Il-76s!!! regularly bombing Iran without any escort to speak of?

Israel had at the time the anti radiation missile AGM 78 for SEAD( Supression Enemy Air Defense) missions that were based on the Standard missile, and it hoped to transform both the AGM 78 with new SARH as secondary mode capability as the Standard with anti radiation secondary mode capability.

The join program from Israel and Iran was only ended after the U.S. agreed to provide AIM 7F for the F 15 Eagle to Israel with the secondary mode capability( High Classified) to lock the emissions ECM, as well as the AIM 54A Phoenix for F 14A Tomcat with this same secondary mode anti radiation capability. Even the radars from F 15 and F 14 had been jammed by ECM, the missiles AIM 7F and AIM 54A should be guided to the ECM source as anti radiation missile into this secondary mode and destroy the target with ECM source, in case of this ECM source were in range of missiles .

In 1986 apparently those two programs from Iran as Standard and Sky Hawk could have been cancelled after the U.S. supplied spare parts for AIM 54A Phoenix, as well as many other items to Iran in 1985, which eventually triggered the scandal of the Iran Gates after that were discovered by the press, with problable same help from …

aha?

However as the program of the Standard for the F 4E Phantom II were more advanced than the program Sky Hawk of F 14A Tomcat since as the first had begun in the late ’70s, the rumors that it reached the stage when it were used against real targets, those could be the MiG 25RB from Iraq in attack missions against oil terminal from Kharg Island.

??

The Standard when launched by F 4E could reach the range more than twice of the AIM 7E range, which would put the MiG 25RB easily into range to be shoot down by the F 4E. Indeed the Iranians always reported that the Standard F 4E had the purpose to be used as anti ship missiles, and some attacks against ships had been made for this purpose.

However the suspect those anti ship missions with Standard launched by Phantom had only the purpose of concealing the true mission that would be intercept the MiG 25RB or others aircraft as Tu 22 and H 6D, since the fleet of Tomcat were too reduced to protect many targets, and the Phantom with Standard missiles could eventually complement the F 14A with AIM 54 missiles, specially in the defense of the Kharg Island as well the oil tankers.

kharg was protected by PHANTOMs according to Iraqis…

At least one Tu 22 Blinder was shot down over the Kharg Island by Phantom II, and that Phantom did it supposedly with AIM 7E Sparrow missile, however the Tu 22 Blinder were well equipped with ECM, and in 1988 Iraq was quite experienced to interfere with radars of F 4E with AIM 7E with high efficiency.A suspect this way and that in fact Tu 22 was shot down by a modified Standard with the capability to be guided to the ECM source even if the radar F 4E had been suffering interference by the enemy jammer. Those Standards could have been modified with spare parts sent by US to AIM 54 in 1985, but diverged to the Standard program

most iraqi blinders were shot down at the beginning of the war.

Regarding the MiG 25RB attack/reconnaissance fighter there no indication that any were shot down by an F 4E Phantom II during the Iran / Iraq War at least with missiles AIM 7E. Before the war some sources had speculated that F 4E from Iran indeed were capable to damage a MiG 25R from Soviet Union that invaded the airspace of Iran with missiles AIM 7E Sparrow after several failed attempts.

I-HAWK is what shot down Iraqi MiG25RBs…

Despite possible still in fact there was a huge difference between the MiG 25R reconnaissance fighter to the MiG 25RB attack/reconnaissance , since this last one were second generation compared to MiG 25R, and were endowed with a powerful ECM system. In fact after the introduction of the MiG 25RB the first generation MiG 25R were gradually converted to the default MiG 25RB.

no there isn’t.

However the invasions of the Soviet Union’s MiG-25RB only had been ceased after the first encounter with the F 14A Tomcat from Iran, in which AIM 54A Phoenix fell in love by the MiG 25.

Did this really happen?

Don’t forget I’m sure they will be able to rely on China’s help and support with all of this too

time to clear the chinese embassy in Beograd YET AGAIN.