Jessmo23SAM’s can relocate quickly, the time of 15 or 30 minutes is nothing as soon as they fold up and relocate makes your enemy SEAD attacks a mood point, you are flying through enemy territory protected by SAM’s that are overlapping each other, while your target is relocating others are still broadcasting, you have no target and have to change, while your aircrafts change the other has relocated and covers some other SAM’s to either relocate and all while you have no target there is a bunch of interceptors coming your way. The use of dummies in ECM,EW,Radar and physical dummies aswell is standard use in PVO. You will lose more aircrafts then it is worth, that is why wild weasel is useless and all militaries who have the technology prefer barrages of cruise missiles which still will be subject to jamming aswell being shot down by the specialized SAM’s with such capabilities. It becomes again a subject of who overwhelms who. PVO is always on the bigger leverage, this isn’t Iraq with a centralized, flat desert without positions to hide your military assets, this isn’t vietnam with old technology, without decentralized AID Network, overlapping SAM’s and redundant Systems with decoys and EW. We are talking about military vs military not some bananarepublic under sanctions or proxy war, nothing like that was ever seen before in modern warfare.
Das + SAR can identify targets, even when not emmiting. Then Apg-81 uses algorithms to identify surface targets
Jessmo23Ill be so glad, when certain posters here who are citizens of certain countries, hear news of thier respective countries recieving stealth fighters. Then atleast we can move on and not hear how stealth doesn’t work.
Jessmo23Again how will the missile be directed?
1. X-BAND WONT work on a raptor or F-35
2. Anti-radiation? All 5th gen fighters use either tactics or LpI radars for signals management stealth.
3. Data links from OTH radar? Now your relying on a spoofable data link coming from a radar thats likely parking lot sized. I forgot to mention that radars in these bands will likely be the 1st things destroyed. I can see the U.S. using a space based (X-31) or hypersonic weapon. B-2 s and B-21s will be stealthy even in L and C bands.
4. Long range IR of some kind? I doubt that the OTH radar can vector a fighter close enough to make a IR weapon effective. Then youd have to factor civilian traffic and fratricide.
You cant change physics. Even a so called L-band AESA would be big wide and ungainly. You need a specific antenna size to make it work.
Notice How awacs despite advances in tech still uses a large rotating dish.
Even though newer versions can stop to electronically scan, it uses the big dish to search. Why do you think that is?
Why wont the U.S. use much smaller radars for search and track?
Jessmo23I don’t think he realises that a F-22 employing stand off weapons is a kinematic monster. I would be deadly in some circumstances even with out stealth. Also arnt the B-21 and B-2 stealthy in the L- band?
Jessmo23And the APG-81 cannot jam surveillance radars. It will either have to enter at low altitude or it will need some help from aircraft with NGJs.
Do you mean L-band? Why would I try and Jam the L- band when I can jamm the Fire control radar? Survalience radars cant achieve accurate firing solutions. They will only be able to vector fighters. If I want to spoof the Survalience radar Id use a MALD.
But we all know this we have done this dance before. I HAVE CONCLUDED THAT 5TH GEN PLANES AND TACTICS ONLY WORK IF YOUR COUNTRY IS BUILDING THEM.
Jessmo23Back to topic. The question was can you achieve victory with legacy gear? You down fall of next gen systems is the exspense.
Jessmo23And what made you think other cannot do the same?
Look, it is more than a decade now that I saw this some exact words about all those things like these they were 100% efficient and 100% exclusively american thing like .
It is not like this now nor it was so then.
All the planes actually in production, russians, europeans and obviously american have actually replaced the old analogic RWR sistems working on pulse repetition with digital high speed directional ESM systems like the APG-81 by years.
For the rest nor the data link nor the ability of using other means to ahieving a fire solution was something new at all, the early eighties operative PESA radar of Mig-31 have all this features even before the first sketch of AMRAAM or of APG-81 was even drawn, AA-10 alamo also had passive-only seekers decades ago, so really nothing really innovative up there IMHO, only LoMart huge expense in advertising.It seems instead looking what you and others wrote that everything remained exactly the same in the actually now more than twenty five years from when the first sthealt plane was revealed and that not any countermeasure to it was not even found but neither tried…
I never said the U.S. was the only country that can do it. Crap everyone in the west atleast uses link 16. But the combination of advanced AESA + stealth + passive engagement sounds formidable.
Im also guessing a 4 ship of F-35s will share data to triangulate even with no radar.
When I talk about these things I may mention pieces but its really the sum of its parts that makes 5th gen dangerous.
Hence the reason I called an article above basically irrelevant.
Jessmo23Jamming is likewise much more difficult against an AESA. Traditionally, jammers have operated by determining the operating frequency of the radar and then broadcasting a signal on it to confuse the receiver as to which is the “real” pulse and which is the jammer’s. This technique works as long as the radar system cannot easily change its operating frequency. When the transmitters were based on klystron tubes this was generally true, and radars, especially airborne ones, had only a few frequencies to choose among. A jammer could listen to those possible frequencies and select the one to be used to jam.
Most radars using modern electronics are capable of changing their operating frequency with every pulse. An AESA has the additional capability of spreading its frequencies across a wide band even in a single pulse, a technique known as a “chirp”. This can make jamming less effective; although it is possible to send out broadband white noise against all the possible frequencies, this reduces the amount of jammer energy in any one frequency. In fact, AESAs can then be switched to a receive-only mode, and use these powerful jamming signals instead to track its source, something that required a separate receiver in older platforms. By integrating received signals from the targets’ own radar along with a lower rate of data from its own broadcasts, a detection system with a precise RWR like an AESA can generate more data with less energy. Some receive beamforming-capable systems, usually ground-based, may even discard a transmitter entirely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_electronically_scanned_array?wprov=sfla1
Jessmo23Apg-81 in jamming role.
e Marine Corps has a program of record to procure 353 F-35Bs and 67 F-35Cs, for a total of 420 aircraft. As the future of Marine Corps tactical aviation, the F-35 will eventually replace three legacy platforms: the AV-8B Harrier, the F/A-18 Hornet, and the EA-6B Prowler. The transition is scheduled to be complete for active duty
Jessmo23that is not a passive mean
I think he meant to show you how passive geolocation work and what are their disadvantages , it not just coincdent that radar still the main air to air sensor
1. The overall point is that the jamming will be detected and tracked.
2. The 5th gen aircraft can not only track by passive means but achieve a firing solutions through multiple means.
3. Your not going to be able to jamm the APG-81 with a late eightes designed pesa radar.
4. So the F-35 has esm, off board, Eots, Apg-81 and im sure other means of achieving a firing solution. I don’t believe a single jammer will stop it.
5. The Amraams are data linked. Or they can use SM-6 from an Aegis.
Jessmo23What does that article have to do with anything? The F-22/ use advanced Aesa radars that frequency hop in a lo probability of intercept mode.
There is also a antenna farm in the wing for sniffing out signals. F-22s scored simulated kills on Rafaels without even using radar.
Jessmo23The big question is how Nato allies would deal with escort jamming? Can Rafael and Typhoon achieve firing solutions by tracking ecm? Can they hand off to ships or other fighters in theatre? Will the F-35 become a big force multiplier for France Germany and the Uk also?
Jessmo23Maybe it was that, so allow me to correct it for more clarity:
Let’s make a comparison: A strike package offour F-35 with only internal A2G load against a strike packagefour Su-34, three with the standard A2Gload and one with escort jammer package and A2A weapons.
Who would deliver a greater punch? What change of survival? What cost?You can also put four F/A-18 and a Growler instead of Su-34 so not to have national preferences interfere with theoriginal i choosed Su-34 because i consider it the most extreme application of the area jamming concept: a plane so big that can carry a specialized ECM suite together with a great load without any relevant effect on its own performances.
Marc 4 F-35s with SDB = 32 bombs and 8 Amraams. I dont know of many things that cannot be killed with that amount of bombs.
The Su-34 while jamming will radiate, announcing to all in theatre that it has arrived. F-22s F-35s can get firing solutions using passive means. Not only that but they will likely pass target data to AEGIS or patriot. In conclusion I think you must attack western IADS and Russian IADS in different ways. The Su-34s may carry a heavier load, but might be mission killed when engaged from range. Or when the escort is destroyed.
Jessmo23Are you even try to make a point ?
Im being sarcastic. This discussion is about anti-access, not Su30 versus F-35. Its sad that every discussion has to devolve into this. Ill mention how stealth has worked for 30 years. He will mention the shoot down in Serbia. Ill mention the F-22 hell talk about missile pks. We have done this dance 1000 times. Lets just stick on topic.
Jessmo23Im sorry I forgot that stealth doesn’t work Russia stronq! The Su-34s dont even need missiles. The Amraams bounce off the Russians fuselage. They alk achieve gun kills. Did I get it right now? 🙂
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