Jay LangleyThe cost of the F135 was 14 million in LRIP 7 for the basic variant. The price is expected to decrease in LRIP 8.
That puts the cost of the F-35A at 108 million ( URFC ) for LRIP 8. The cost will probably decrease faster than 4% per year after LRIP 8. With the increase in production it is very possible that it would decrease by 5-6% per year until the first MYP. The MYP will see the cost decrease even more.
Lockheed is also investing in the production line to reduce the cost of dozens of F-35 parts. The US government will pay for the investment that will have proven worthwhile.
Those figures accurate?……..I mean for LRIP 8 is it FACTUALLY 108 Million or is HOPED to be 108 Million……and does that include all the extras…like engine and this whole Maintenance, Upgrades “contract” add on costs mess…….and if not…how much does that actually increase the “Drive home cost”…….I can;t stand these partial figures…..what I want to know is…Country X is buying an F35 RIGHT NOW….how much DOES it cost?…INCLUSIVE…and NOT speculated to be in 6 months or a year…..
this seems to be the difficult question for anyone to answer, without getting into LRIP this or that and speculated costs next year…….JUST the COMPLETE cost right now……with the Engine, the support, upgrades contracts maintenence contract etc………does anyone actually know?……..
Also, although “Exercises” ARE to gain operational experiences between Nations, practice tactical skills etc……there is ALWAYS a VERY healthy level of competition between participants…..it was the same in the Army with the Armoured Corp…..so there definately will be opinions and some evidence of how a plane or a tank etc. really does do…although individual crew / pilot ability will also show through…….
Jay LangleyNone of Brazil’s F-5Es were built in the 1990s. They’re all at least 30 years old.
The upgrade is major. The structure has been refurbished to extend its life, new radar (with new nose cone to accept a bigger antenna) & other avionics, new cockpit. A day fighter has been turned into an all-weather fighter with BVR missiles & a range of PGMs.
Yes, Gripen would be a nice fit for Mexico, but I suspect secondhand F-16s might be more likely.
You are 100% correct…my appologies……..I miss read, it was between 1975 – 1880, the last 11 F-5 E/F’s used from Jordan, where made…..even worse…they are ancient…..agreed, the upgrades put into an absolute relic of an airframe is extensive, but not entirely thought of by Brazil… a larger nose cone was already designed by Canadair for the CF-5 and NF -5 versions built under licence, as where numerous other upgrades..( Radars, Avionics etc)….Brazil has done a more extensive job and sunk alot more into them…but still a thirty + year old airframe…..
how long would they want them to keep flying operationally?…..hopefully they DO get enough Gripens to retire all of their antiques……..I do however still have alot of difficulty seeing sense or reason for the “Sea” Gripen….not to reopen the whole arguement over Carriers….but I can;t see the economics or the sense…..get Gripens for the Lot……equip the airforce……
Jay LangleyThe cost of the F-35A is getting close to that of 4.5 gen fighters. Under these conditions customers will probably prefer the F-35, except for cases like small air forces focused more on defense, which might prefer the grippen probably.
The CPFH will decrease when the F-35 gets more maturity. Basing long term estimates on data from the current fleet is rather hazardous.
OK, people keep saying the “costs” are “getting close to that of Gen 4.5” or they are being reduced…..but I fail to be able to see that as the “costs” don;t include the engine, the added SUBSTANTIAL costs of the “contracted” support, maintenence, upgrades etc…as I was so forcefully told was “normal”…NORMAL to the tune of an additional $15.8 MILLION per plane. ( as per the article posted last page)…….so what is the ACTUAL “take home price”…because without an engine the thing is useless…the add on costs are substantial….so where is it getting “cheaper”…….because all those add on costs are HIGHER than what was expected right?…..so doesn;t that sortof say the costs are still the same?……or even higher?…….I am really just trying to get my mind around the “costs getting cheaper”…….
Jay LangleyF-5 has one very desirable property, fantastic low operational cost,
about 10% cheaper than Gripen from what i’ve read.
the operational cost is why AF chose to scrap MiG-29 and keep their MiG-21
Granted the F-5 is dirt cheap to operate, yet the Gripen is classed as being one of the lowest operational cost aircraft ( within it’s type) available right now as well……..so I mean, YES it will cost 10% more to operate, yet the capability increases many fold as well…..As I said, I have to agree with Spitfire that any 1:3 ratio is rediculous…..I mean numbers are still required simply to allow for whatever factors in, including training, MX, commitments and deployments etc……….and to provide for the shear size of the Country…..personally I think the Gripen fits in to the plot of the F-5 as an updated, upgraded more capable option really well…….and certainly expands upon it….but I can;t see 36 being all they need or want……and as I said….Mexico could be a potential purchaser……
anyway, cheers
Jay LangleyThe schedule is wrong. According to the published dates, the last of the 36 Gripens will be delivered years before the AMX will be retired. The latest upgrade is supposed to give AMX another 20 years of life.
The 36 Gripens will replace the capability lost with the retirement of Mirage 2000 (though the capabilities added by the upgrade allows the F-5BR to do things that previously only the Mirages could), & partially replace the F-5BR.
The question I can see , is the F-5BR worth keeping around at this point…YES Brazil has “upgraded” them…but to what degree…..I mean the plane it;s self is a 1960’s design….the newest ones Brazil has they got second hand from Jordan and they where built in 80’s-early 90’s and are also needing the Brazilian Upgrade…..realistically, the plane is not modern, is it perhaps very hopeful on the Brazilian part to assume that the F5BR’s will keep going until 2025 or even 2020?
another market that perhaps Brazil could look at is Mexico….with their needing to replace their few F-5’s and not many “options” available to them……the Brazilian Gripen MAY be an easy fit and sale……
Jay LangleyDo you have a source for your claim that the plan is to replace the 100+ legacy aircraft with 36?
Yes, Gripen is a multi-role aircraft able to do what AMX can do (strike) and what F-5 can do (intercept) so in a sense 50 Gripens can do the the jobs of 50 AMX and 50 F-5 and do those jobs far more effectively. However the 36 aircraft ordered will not be available for action all the time (none unavailable due to training, none unavailable for MX reasons, none unavailable due to future upgrade work, none unavailable due to foreign joint exercises, courtesy visits etc).
Brazil is a big, big place. Its area exceeds 8 million sq km. By comparison, the area of the UK is less than 250,000 sq km. Let’s imagine for a moment that all Gripens are permanently available for action 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. To provide the same level of cover per square kilometer for the UK as 36 Gripens would provide for Brazil, the UK would need just about 1 Gripen.
The point I am trying to make is that however much of an advance in capability a new fighter offers over existing fighters in service, geography dictates that the number required to replace existing fighters is not inversely proportional to capability ie it is not the case that if a new fighter is 3 times as effective as one’s existing fighter only 1/3 the number will be required to replace the capability of one’s existing fighter.
Spitfire,
I could NOT agree with you more, in fact, ironically this is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say on the F35 thread as well……Canada, much like Brazil is MASSIVE in land mass……..and simply put…getting less planes will NOT give the coverage due to all the factors you mentioned……like numbers for like numbers makes sense……In no way could only 36 Gripens provide year round 24/7 coverage for Brazil….simply put with only 1/3 the number of aircraft, it leaves nothing for aircraft being down for any number of reasons….anyway…….articulately worded and truer words couldn;t be found……
Jay LangleyIt’s a great place Jay, with some lovely aircraft, although I think quite a few of them have been grounded this year?
Not really sure Mike…I know that the Corsair, the F86 and the Hurricane where at the CWHM airshow in June…….the Mustang and P40 where flying for the welcome home of Lancaster VR – A…..others are being worked on, same as anywhere I guess…..here we seem to have somewhat of a shortage of qualified for the type pilots….( pilot of the Hurricane is a WW2 Veteran!)…even for the CWHM….extensive logbooks and deep pockets seem to be needed in many cases…….regardless…….YES it is a great place….and like CWHM it is very hands on…… paid flights etc…….lots of school groups and cadets, scouts etc…….
to be fair……for a day not to forget…..one could do the Canada Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa..( WONDERFUL all indoors displayed aircraft…pre WW1 to modern CF188 Hornets….including a fully restored ( it was FLOWN there and put on display) Lancaster, and some rather rare ( to us anyway) German aircraft too….Me 163 Komet, HE 162 Volksjager Salamander, and a complete Me 109 E, etc)……then a short drive to the Vintage Wings Canada…….full day for sure…but do able!….
Cheers……Hope maybe some of you all from the UK , Europe etc.get a chance to see what Ontario offers in Warbirds……
Jay LangleyLads, I feel bad for you all loosing the F86…..I am however highly jelous that you’ve all had flying Vampires and such….here in Canada we have them in the museums, but none flying…..
Just to give you all something to look at in your F86 deprivation….
[ATTACH=CONFIG]232967[/ATTACH]
This is a WONDERFUL FLYING MUSEUM located in Quebec Canada, not far from Ottawa…….they tend to be a tad unheard of due to the CWHM popularity……but seriously incredible……FLYING Stringbag, RN Corsair, CF86, Hurricane, RCAF Mustang, P40, Spits, Lysander and the list goes on…and they have several if not more Spits in restoration…..
Take alook……might rejuvinate some love…especially with the cold winter months quickly creeping in….
Jay LangleyYou have a real comprehension problem, don’t you?
The VAST majority of issues dealing with the F-35 will be dealt with organically, just like the F-16 today, just like in a car dealership.
What will be different with the F-35 is that it will model how a car dealership is run. For the more complex pieces of equipment, they will simply replace the part, just like in a car dealership. I did not say the plane is sent to the part, but the part to the plane (I’ll repost the pic so you can see the plan again). The broken part will then be sent to a depot, fixed, re-certified, and put back in the pool is appropriate. This is how it’s done in a car dealership. They don’t re-wind alternators, repair boards in the stereo, re-spec an engine, etc. They just swap parts and do moderate repairs.
I am not saying that a F-35 will never be sent whole to a FACO for repair, but those times will be very few and far between. The partners know this and accept it as a tradeoff to saving a ton of money by not having to build their own FACO (which they would still have to land/air/boat ship the airframe to, so no valid argument there).
btw, You might want to do more research on how JSF contracts work because most do not include any long term parts, support, upgrades, etc. Even it they are (very bid specific and do not include ANY of the JSF Partners), they are ALWAYS covered under separate contracts (even if included in the agreed-upon bid) and not under the procurement contract. Currently, only the Procurement contracts are “fixed price” as the jet is still under SDD. Parts and sustainment have always been “cost plus” and will be so for a little while longer until more is known about lifetime wear & tear profiles.
The fact that you think the $15+ mil was “over” what was expected speaks volumes about your lack of understanding on how contracting works, especially with the JSF. Take a few minutes and Google & read the FY2015 budget docs and you will see that Appropriation, Development, Support, Upgrades, Parts, Training, etc are all separate line items that are contracted separately.
Here is way the logistics works, notice that 2 levels of maintenance is done organically.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]232958[/ATTACH]
YES, I guess I do have “comprehension issues”……….
try as you may, I still , when looking at what the OTHER providers have and do offer, including Tech Transfers, In Nation Licenced production and all parts, full sustained upgrades etc….ALL Included in their PRICE………
so I guess my comprehension issue is that I simply cannot believe that LM has developed such a conveluted and backasswards system….. “JSF” contracts are apparently the most complicated, non inclusive, add on extra cost contracts ever devised…..and personally, I would bother to read such rubbish as they are pushed asside and trampled on at will….
Enjoy it………I guess the author of the article was wrong……..apparently the 15.8 million PER plane was expected to be added on…..who the hell am I to argue……..I mean I am only an adult that works, pays for and maintains a household, vehicles and a family…guess my reasoning and ability to see deals and BS must be totally no use at all…..( funny how it;s worked well up till just now)……..anyway…….I am sure that EVERYTHING will be just perfect in F35 land and everything that LM “Plans” will occur, problem free…..
It boggles the mind how people can simply trot out LM published Propaganda and claim it’s the truth and wholely right……perhaps if more people actually questioned things, getting into what may turn out to be really bad situations may occur less frequently…….but hey, thats just my “simple and comprehension issued opinion”
Good luck…..I hope the LM offers you a great job in the PR department…..
Jay LangleyYou do realize that you just made my point, don’t you?
A dealership has a store of parts and the mechanics to install them. However, it does not manufacture or repair the parts. If an alternarory is bad, it puts in a new one. It then sells the old one to a scrapper for a rebuild and to be sold on the aftermarket parts market. It does not actually fix any part, it only replaces parts (ie LRUs).
And yes, the car does got to other places as needed. Depending on the repair, the car may go to a body shot of extensive after-collision repair, a paintshop for a new coat, etc. Few, if any, dealerships have their own paint and body shops as they take up a lot of space and require specialized mechanics that are not used very often.
btw, The planes should never have to go back to LM. In the worst case (major structural damage) they would go back to the nearest FACO (Italy, Japan, etc) Even full Block upgrades are done in-country.
Keep in mind that the JPO has already stated that 19 new worldwide repair facilities are plannend for the next 5 years.
You are obvious having a problem understanding the difference between buying an already developed plane (Known Costs and Timelines) and paying someone to develop something new (Unknown Costs and Timelines). As the SDD program progresses, the contracts will and already have started to, transition from a “Cost plus” to a “Fixed price” type.
In either case, the contracts only cover the buying of the plane and do not include any upgrades, sustainment, or parts for said plane going forward.
If you have an issue with one the 8 contracts, then say so but to cover all 8 with a wide brush of disingenuous disgust helps nobody understand the issues.
But I didn;t prove your point at all…….in fact YOU proved my point….”worst case( major structural damage) they would go back to the nearest FACO ( Italy, Japan, etc)”…sorry, moving things from country to country isn;t great……shipping is always a chore and expensive…couldn;t imagine trying to ship a full Military aircraft that would be considered restricted or top secret…..who the hell is going to insure that?…..and sorry, Italy or Japan are not convienient for all…..such as Norway…( thats sure a number of countries to get across to Italy……where will the UK send theirs?…Italy too?…..how about Canada?…where would they send theirs?….as for the “Dealership or Garage FIXING the cars…YES that is what they do….they stock pile the parts or have them available in quick notice and FIX the problem…getting it back and running ASAP…..YOUR way is backwards……send the broken car to where the parts are stored…..the result….costs MORE, takes LONGER, depletes the availablity of “Planes” for any said Nation etc……no m,ater how you put it…the Horse needs to go before the cart….it doesn;t work very conviently or smoothly the other way around….
“JPO can PLAN 19 new worldwide repair facilities over the next five years” all they want…..until they are approved by foreign nations, agreements are signed and buildings are built and techs trained etc….it is a PLAN, and nothing more…..
“You are obvious having a problem understanding the difference between buying an already developed plane (Known Costs and Timelines) and paying someone to develop something new (Unknown Costs and Timelines). As the SDD program progresses, the contracts will and already have started to, transition from a “Cost plus” to a “Fixed price” type.”
I didn;t see evidence of the fabled “fixed price” at all today….the article which obviously was researched well, clearly stated that the costs where 15.8 Million OVER what was expected!…that is NOT fixed….if a contract is signed for $X amount…that is what should be payed ….as for buying a something that exists or paying someone to develop something……..well that is easy….buy REAL material items…..investing in a design or development is extremely risky as there is nothing to invest in…..LM had cast iron balls of steal to “convince” so many Nations into something that was questionable at best initially….
as for the Upgrades etc….they are almost ALWAYS covered in the price…..as it was in both the Rafale and Gripen proposals that came to Canada….sustainment is also often included, especially if full tech and productions licences are extended ( such as SAAB to Brazil)….and I have never heard of parts NOT being available…..so those points are utterly moot……and in fact make LM look bad, as the others seem to be able to offer exactly what you said should be “extras”.
Jay LangleyThat maybe very true…..BUT, seeing as NO maintenance facilities are yet built and operational outside of the USA, I guess actual costs associated, for say the Netherlands needing to send a F35 all the way back to the USA for service will be a telling feature……ONCE the planes actually leave the USA I mean ( I understand that the TWO Dutch ones are staying in USA to help with assessments etc.)…bits and pieces I can see, electronics etc…I mean access the old parts, send for check and refurbishment, install new parts right at the Nation’s AF Facilities…and I will disagree that NOT simply training the manpower ( see Airforce airframe / electronics mechs and techs) to fix the planes in house…..sending them outside of the structural entity and likely outside of the country is stupid….and will in no way save “money”…the manpower already exists, train them, use them….this “specialized” facilities stuff is rediculous…like I said, IF an entire airframe needs to be sent…it is NOT an easy process……keeping the aircraft IN the country and ON it;s airfield and fixing it there makes sense…
To assume that this untried and unestablished system will work, let alone “save time and money” is ludicrous…..and seriously, here was the first time I had read of it…it was NEVER released as general knowledge here in Canada….and will enflame the issue even more I am sure…..
It may work for the USA, keeping it all in the USA…..lets see how “efficient YOU ALL would think it is, IF the USA’s planes had to go to say Turkey or Italy for repairs?……I know it will never work out that way…but it isn;t efficient for ANYONE other than the USA…..sure they will have the bulk of the planes…but it is not in the ‘interests” of any other Nation…..and WILL add to the costs associated with operating them…….and really, if it was ONE “car’ I could see that analogy working…but we are talking about fleets of Nations ONLY fighters in many cases…..and at substantial costs invested in each plane…having to send it away for unknown periods to God knows where just is NOT efficient….it;s not like a “loaner” plane comes and replaces the shipped out aircraft…..several levels of “organic” maintenance…….what a joke…it should be part and parcel to acquiring the planes to do all the work in country by the user Airforce…..sorry but that is how it has worked for generations…….again…what is good for the USA is NOT neccesarily good for any other Nation…. ( history has proven such time after time)
By the way…. I don;t know what “Car dealership” YOU go to….but here, I take my car to the LOCAL dealership and it is fixed there ON site!…it doesn;t go from location to location…the parts needed are brought into THAT site and the mechanics employed there FIX IT. They don’t send it back to the factory……..and the Car dealership DOES handle the repairs for the life of the car!…parts are kept in their stores, mechanics still work there and it costs the cost of parts and then labour on top of that….that is how the world works……….If I had to pay for my car to be dissassembled or shipped whole to another country to get the work done on it…because my local “dealer” couldn;t do it…….I wouldn;t buy that type of car…because it is NOT cost effective nor efficient….would you?
Jay LangleyIf you have the4 F-35 then you have access to a C5, C17, AN-124, etc that can move the plane (sans wings) wherever you want it to go. Then there is always the option to put it on a boat.
Worst case scenario is that a crew gets sent in country to do the stripdown and repair.
These options are not something that they have not thought of already. They have balanced all repair risks against the tremendous cost savings of the F-35’s distributed logistics and sustainment network.
btw, Take a chill-pill on the contracts. Get back to me when you know what 8 contracts they are and what they cover. Blowing a gasket without knowing what is covered and if it not a normal expense just makes you look bad. Even the original poster admitted they included new parts, ongoing sustainment, concurrency etc.
Chill pill taken…….but after re reading that article it further states that those contracts are “cost PLUS incentive”…therefore adding a guarenteed profit to LM….as well it does CLEARLY state that the LOT 6 Aircraft WILL have the extra expenses added to them….so…does it matter what they cover?…the PLANE is 15.8 Million dollars more expensive……NOT cheaper…..and the spokesman again said that main Production costs where UNDERSTATED and AFTER the contracts where signed, the extra costs got added on……to me , that is poor salesmanship and reminds me of a “used car salesman” approach…
And I am glad that LM have put “thought” into their bizzare planned repair system…..I wonder if all the Nations getting into the purchases of them etc fully understand that they can;t do anything to them, and it will end up costing substantially MORE to ship them ( air time / ops costs for C17, C5 etc), cost of repairs, cost of sending pilot back to repair site to fly plane back…..and all out of the Airforce’s chain of command and control…bottom line is that the system allows the OWNERS of the planes ( individual nations) practically no say at all in maintenance and repairs and again puts all the “power” back into LM’s hands…..Not a system I would deem to be self sufficient by any means…and comes with such an “umbillical cord” effect to the USA and LM that it can;t be a good situation for many Nations..
Jay LangleyThe theory is that whilst before AirForces had to maintain specialised repair centres for their fleets (up to structural damage level-this was always a go home type of damage) which required tooling, manuals, seminars, training, logistic support for parts, stocks, scheduling, hangars, infrastructure, real estate, buildings, barracks, railway connections, fuel depots, air defences, etc etc etc… NOW you simply sent the plane back to one of the -very few- designated centres and pay for the repair only.
BUT how do you “simply send home” a classified, Military Jet Aircraft?….if the thing is unable to fly itself…then what?…truck, train, inside a C5( how much dissassembly required?…is that even allowed to be done by the Airforce?)…or is it that a “special trained LM crew” would need to be sent to prep it for transport
what would Nations that don;t have C5’s do?………is it going to fit in a C130?…..and where will the “very few” designated centers going to be?……will they be established by the usual LM “You can BID on it” BS?…..but any Airforce that is already in operation HAS the maintenence facilities, buildings, manpower etc….because that is what Airforces do…..this system makes it sound so easy, like getting a tow truck and taking your car back to the dealership……REALITY CHECK…I cannot see this being cost effective, manageable or even feasible in sooooo many cases….the worlds biggest Logistics nightmare….
Jay LangleyLockheed awarded more contracts for F-35:
So the farce continues – not only does LM not have to foot the bill for its failings but actually gets paid a profit premium for screwing things up in the first place! Mmmm… bit of a strange buyer/supplier relationship to me.
Unreal…another $15.8 MILLION on top of each of 31 aircraft’s purchase price in LOT 6……….well so much for the “reduction” in prices…..so what does that add up to for ACTUAL price for Lot 6 aircraft?……….
Jay LangleyI can see that……..any aircraft that has issue enough NOT to be able to fly to said “repair facilities”, even if it is in the same country….will be the PARAMOUNT in difficulty in transportation…….not like an F35 will just sit on a transport trailer…..as I see this….THIS could be a major issue…potentially having numbers of F35’s just sitting, damaged or broken and no way to get them fixed or airborne……seems to me that ANY Nation / Airforce Operating the F35 should be able to repair/replace parts, maintain them without “help” from any outside sources……is that NOT the way it has been done for eons?…..so now everything needs to change?…to become reliant on others for the Airforce’s repair needs?……I cringe when I even think about the logistics that will be required to simply get broken F35’s to a repair facility……how can it be done in an even remotely cost effective manner?…
Sign In
