The F35 “getting” the METEOR and any other missiles is as of yet not even a funded excursion down that lane..

The modifications to the airframe and weapons bays to simply HOUSE the METEOR will require some serious work….then testing, compatability testing, then maybe approval for use.bottom line is this as it stands RIGHT NOW the F35 cannot accept, carry nor fire any missiles other than the AIM120 and the AIM9X….that is it….the level of priority for the USA and LM to go through the efforts and expenses when even the basic airframe is not in service is simply not at the forefront of their list of things to do…..a completely foreign missile, not of US production nor design MAY make the list at some point…but not soon I would imagine……

I would like to mention here that , as was sdaid, many CURRENT airframes are utillizing HMD’s…infact, some not so new planes do as well, example…the Canada CF18’s were upgraded with HMD several years ago….so that bearing seems to be really a rather mout point saying the F35 has HMD….perhaps it may be better, more complex…..but certainly NOT a stand alone feature…..

it was also mentioned about “better” or perhaps different AAM’s…well that is a situation where there is a plethora of options…..including the Euro produced METEOR BVRAAM…..the variable flow ramjet equipped missile with speeds in excess of mach 4, range beyond a 100 km..South Korea has likewise got new technology missiles…

The fact that the F35 is handicapped by ONLY being able to carry the AIM- 120,and AIM – 9X, which are already inferior to the Meteor, and in a pathetic number…how does that fit?…….by utilizing external hardpoints the loadout can approach useful, but by doing that the entire “stealth” factor goes out the window…so where is the benifit?…..

with the influx of newer “stealth design” aircraft coming out of potential beligerant nations like Russia and China…aircraft that have simularly reduced RCS’s, radar that will presuably be somewhere in the ball park of equal…yet are designed to carry a greater array of weapons in greater numbers, also utilizing the much touted interconnectivity and HMD….where is the F35 going to go?…..all these points being made are great…they are stats on paper…for a Nation like the USA or even the UK, where they operate a variety of airframes, and in the case of the USA, have three services PLUS the Air Nation Guard all flying the F35 may be just dandy……bottom line….for all the Nations, such as Canada, that are looking for a sole airframe..what happens IF the model is grounded due to issues?…….the USA still has F15’s, F22’s etc….the UK still retains the Typhoon II, Canada, Norway, Denmark the Netherlands etc would be totally WITHOUT any aircraft in the sky….Australia would be forced to rely on a few dozen F18 E/F/G’s….and that is just due to mechanical fleet groundings…..can nations that can literally only afford 60ish or less airframes, IF they lose any to accident, or operational loss…those loses are staggering…..and can;t be easily made up…..

By the way Vnomad….Canada, as a tier three partner in the F35, has contributed in excess of $200 million…..the UK in excess of 2.5 Billion, Italy 1 billion, Netherlands, 800 million, Australia over 160 million, Norway 122 million, and Denmark some 11 million…..Sure the US has fronted the bulk of the costs…they are the ones that want the bulk of the built planes……and for most of these other Nations…expenditures like these are substantial…..

Vnomad, you stated that the F35 matches or exceeds the F18 E/F on most performance perimeters …yet that is NOT the case…the F35 is a nominal top speed of mach 1.6, and can only sustain Mach 1.2 for 9.8 Minutes….it has a “clean” range of 1,200 nmi………well lets see, the F18 E/F tops out at mach 1.8…has an operational range of 1,275 nmi, WITH external AIM9X Missiles….the F35 can carry 4 x AIM 120’s or 4 AIM 9X, PLUS a further 2 AIM 7’s or another 2 AIM 120’s…plus any variety of air to ground missiles and a huge variety of guided or dumb bombs.. to a total of 17,750 lbs….. the F35…just 4 missiles or bombs internally ( clean..so “Stealth”)…or if the external pylons are used…up to a total of 18,000 lbs…so lets see…..just off the top, NO and NO..and with NO stealth and a full loadout, just barely by 250 lbs……..the F35 does NOT meet or exceed the perimeters

Funny that you mention that Canada has a Military budget of 20 Billion..YET it has also recieved a substantial budget cut and is expected to face further cuts…somewhere in the range of over 6 billion lost to the budget…..lets see, and that is divided by three services, Army, Air and Sea….Canada is supposed to be building much needed new ships….we are stuck trying to buy absolute CRAP Sikorsky CH 148 helicopters, 13 years over due…and over budget…off the AIR FORCE Budget!……used on navy ships , owned and operated by RCAF……..we just got new C130 j’s out of the Air Budget…keeping cf18’s active and deployed in two locations currently…and the RCAF “Snow Birds” had to cancel shows this year due to lack of funds……..so yes, I can see how an extra 230 Million PER year, on TOP of the Purchase price, and adding in the “training budget”….the F35 is NOT financially viable for Canada…it cannot operate for a Nation with a single airframe type soverignty defence…….the pitance that Canada may see in building a part or two for the program is a joke…..sorry……facts and figures aside….the F35 is NOT going to be suitable for Canada, and likely not for the other smaller Nations either……if the US wants them fine…..I can’t won;t argue that….but for everyone to operate the same planes?….idiotic…..a fleet grounding due to mechanical issues would take out most of NATO’s air defenses…….as I said, the USA has options, the rest of us do not……and International interoperablility, well that already exists, it doesn;t require the same planes to achieve it……

I don;t know why I am even bothering replying but here goes….

as to “if I know the gripen is single engined”….YES of course…my point was that IF Canada was going to completely ignore it’s two engine perferance for the F35, then surely the Gripen must also be allowed to be included…..by the way, the Gripen offer included full manufacture IN CANADA, with total tech. turnover and regular supported upgrades …..hard to argue when it would mean a huge boost in aero employment in Canada….that is why I said “Gripen”…….

Again, every one is arguing about costs Plus various inflation, however, not one person has included the “COST” that every Nation involved has already spent in the two decade long development……

SO in reality, should not the amount spent by the UK, Australia etc. be divided by the expected number of aircraft and added to the purchase price?…after, every Nation has contributed millions and millions and more……

as well there are any number of well documented reports that clearly outline the expected operating costs of the F35 vs the F18 E/F etc……and the figures come back at double the cost for the F35, and those figures have NOT been discounted or contested by LM…the figures I read where some $32,000.00 PER HOUR for the F35 vs. slightly less than $16,000.00 per hour for the F18 E/F…..so again…if those costs are added up and applied to the costs for the airframes……..in no way shape or form could the F35 ever be considered a “good value purchase”…..

Thanks both David and CharlieHunt,

I have read that YOU travelled and made the best of it and enjoyed it David…and THAT is what I would have expected as well…….YOU got the great memories and experiences from your effort……..Charlie , you likewise seem to have a really positive and logical way of looking at the experiences………

And I am actually sorry I kind of blew some steam off…..but that post by that Meddle , just pushed my buttons …..so to all the GREAT and supportive and nice people in the UK….my apologies …….

David, I too saw the griping and whining everywhere you turned it seemed….and it was really frustrating to read…..Many Canadians, Aussies, Kiwi’s etc. would have given their eye teeth to have been able to get to the UK to see the airshows and all that was happening…I know some DID get there…but for most of us, I think the massive expenses (Airfare there and back, car rental, food , lodgings etc….likely close to 4000 pounds’ish) and weeks off work etc. where the reasons more didn;t get there……then seeing people that couldn;t go a few hours to see them….that was unreal….and people where actually REALLY upset that the Lanc’s didn;t fly over their houses!……couldn;t make it up , honestly……

anyway, again, Thanks to all that made the travelling Canadians and the Lancaster feel welcome and appreciated…..I know that the trip meant alot to so many, Canadians as well as those in the UK……

so thanks……

Cheers lads,

I hope that it wasn;t me that did that Tony……

I really got alot from your messages…….and as I have said…….although the gesture of the “petition” was nice…it isn;t realistic nor needed…….just my .2 cents worth……

I honestly feel it wouldn;t even be accepted BY the CWHM even if it was offered…… and lets face it…the levels of Government it would need to go through?…wow……..

It was a sincere and good idea…..just not a realistic one I feel………anyway, THANKS for the support for our Canadian Lanc. and it has been VERY obvious that she was well appreciated and looked after in the UK…….I;m glad the we ( Canada ) could send over some good will and good entertainment 🙂

WV 903………well said…….I think that the East Kirkby and “Just Jane” folks are doing an incredible job!…….and I KNOW that many here have become aware of her because of the Lancaster Tour……I have faith that things will progress and she will soon be in the air as well…….much respect to them and their really great museum / plane and site……

It’s exciting as there is basically a Canadian version of “Just Jane” as well, as most of will know…….at Naton, Alberta…maybe some day she to can get new main spars and get airborne…same as the now under restoration, “Bad Penny” at Windsor’s CH2A…….the future on both sides of the pond look well positioned to see lancs. in the air……..maybe, just maybe, some day, they will all get into the air together…now that would be a wonderful site……..

Cheers,

sorry, double posted for some reason 🙂

Brown nosing?……by whom? people having a courtious coversation hardly ranks as “brown nosing” I would think…………Tony, I may be incorrect about the costs involved with the BBMF engine “hourly rental” and expected return to 0 hours….BUT I am fairly certain that that is what I read…..as to WHY all four engines would need a complete rebuild again…I am not too sure…..I doubt they are houred out already…..regardless the Packard 266 #4 engine still needs a complete rebuild….

Your points regarding the East Kirkby engine vs. BBMF one sounds likely as well……and as I said, I am sure that BBMF and CWHM had details about such occurances worked out in advance ……and awesome that you donated to the fund…..really, who could ask or expect more……I for one certainly don;t see any need for Governments to become involved, NOR do I think it a wise move to strip the BBMF of an engine either….as it stands the co operation between the entities operating the Lancs seems pretty damb good and getting better…..really, I don;t think the CWHM NEEDS another engine….but simply need the loan of it for the tour and return…..and whatever the “bill” entails for that, does it matter?…….that really is between BBMF and CWHM…..no doubt they will get it all looked after in everyones best interest…..

anyway, cheers and thanks!….. hopefully someday some of you all will get a chance to get across and see the air museums here in Canada…..( in Ontario there is CWHM…an absolute MUST!….also really incredible..The National Air and Space Museum in Ottawa…That is where the Tiffy you sent us for display is!…lots of great planes there…and many where flown to the museum ans simply put on display…including another Lanc, a Liberator ( flown from INDIA!) Me109 E, Spits, Mustangs, Hurricanes, Junkers “Salimander” Volksjager, Komet Rocket fighter, Swordfish etc…the Vintage Wings in Gataneau Quebec ( very near Ottawa) is another flying museum…..the CH2A in Windsor and the Nanton Alberta Bomber Command Museum of Canada……in all honesty there are more “BCATP” Trainers here than you imagine…..they are everywhere, if those types interest you…..including I believe the world’s ONLY flying Fleet Fort at the CWHM….

really nice to find like minded people from across the world…..

Thanks for the feed back lads……

OK, Charlie, the Lanc. engines ON VeRA had JUST undergone a complete rebuild BEFORE the flight was done……they spent a pile on them getting her ready to fly over……BUT like anything that is 70 years old……….”#@it happens”……noone is looking to blame or anything, it happens…..The care and help that those in the UK showed was awesome to see……..the Just Jane folks offered an engine, the BBMF offered an engine ( I believe that the BBMF one was used purley for logistical reasons, including getting it back to the UK)……

Bruce, no worries mate……..and your for certain right….how can we ever know?…….it’s a mechanical beast, a 70 year old one at that……anything can happen at anytime…..although she flys here in North America for airshows etc…..the extra time and stress on her engines surely didn;t help……they would normally fly 100 hours per year in her, the same as the BBMF does…to keep track of and enlongate the airframe / spar life……she certainly flew far over that this year……..and next year will be a sparse flying year to compensate for this season……one needs to remember that these Lancs. where NEVER built with the idea of keeping them flying as long as they have…..realistic expectations where for them to last what ?….17 missions?….and perhaps a total of 800 hours Max.

ah, it’s all good…….don;t worry about it…..we Canadians will pay the bill…..no need to go through all the effort of trying to get 100,000 signatures, then bother the Government ( I am sure they have more important things to worry about) and trickle down to the MoD…..it’s all good……….situations happen, and already the British People have been so great in supporting CWHM and VeRA……seriously, it was really heart warming to see from a far……….here in Canada, our population is so small and our land size soooo big, that our airshows are really sparsely attended…..even the CWHM’s airshow ( which is GREAT) really doesn;t see to many more than say 10,000 people all weekend……(I am just guessing by my own eyes at them…could be more I guess)……so to see SOOOOO many people out to see the Lancs. together was really incredible…..example, the miles long cars parked on the road along the Derwent Dam run….( seen in video from the Lancs.)

Anyway, again, thanks for all the support for our ol’ lady……..but don;t worry about the little things like a bill…..it will be looked after…….:)