Jay Langleyno they dont just hoped, that why the missiles need the EO seeker and the 2 ways datalink, it not to be fully autonomous
WHAT are you trying to say?…over and over and over..you keep saying 2 way Data links………THEY are NO WHERE near good enough for that……you just cannot let it go can you?….
and YES, the USA IS the only ones that have Carriers “Groups”….and it sounds like using your own exact words that you visualize your dream missiles streaking in to kill US planes etc…because NOTHING else can even get close…..
repeating 5 words over and over does NOT convince anyone, nor “win” a conversation…..” EO seeker, 2 way datalink”….so, where are these super advanced tech’s?…..have you got them ready to go?…….give me a break….
Jay Langleyok JAY can you read? , or did you bother to read at all? did you even read the part about 2 way datalink and EO seeker? , do you read the part about it coud be used? , or you just want to scream so that it sound like you make a point .?
I HAVE read everything…..it doesn;t matter…….IT IS YOUR FANTASY….it is NOT reality, it is NOT a viable concept…….hell, put datalinks to the Deathstar for all I care……it will NOT be viable……NO one launches a non recoverable, missile that may or may not find a target…may or may not blow itself up when it runs out of fuel and just randomly cruises the skies for 700 -800 km’s?…..
YES, I can READ…………can YOU?….how many people need to say the same thing to you…the idea is flawed and silly…..
I don;t have to yell to make my point…and others are saying the same thing…it is YOU that simply cannot grasp that your idea is flawed….
Add whatever tech. you want to your dream…….it’s just that a dream…..NO ONE is making this…it’s just in your head…..get over it…
Jay Langleydid you read anything? i said EO seeker and 2 ways datalink, basically same concept as SLAM-ER
Why so defensive Mig31?……face it…your personal dream missile will NOT work……NO ONE just launches a Missile and HOPES it finds a target……find the target, acquire the target and kill the target……
What AWACS, Tankers or Enemy Carrier Groups are you “launching against”?……..sounds to me exactly like you are dreaming about launching attacks on the USA…because they are the ONLY ones that have Carrier Groups…..
and your basic concept is flawed at so many levels it hurts………..
Jay LangleyBut that is what M31 is advocating, a subsonic UAV with EO sensor and data link which can fire a supersonic missile. If no target is found before the UAV reaches bingo fuel, it returns to base to be refurbished and flown again.
But it ISN’T what he is advocating, he is talking about some hypothetical dream of his own….that will see the MISSILE itself be the UAV….it isn;t launched by anything else…it just cruises around and MAY eventually find a target……in the meantime, data linked or not, it is an armed missile simply flying around on it’s own..with NO return to base nothing……it would just fly around and IF it didn;t find a target and ran out of fuel, he said it would self destruct!…great scraps of metal falling over populated areas?…..or worse, it doesn;t self destruct, it crashes armed into a school or hospital or whatever…..the shear costs LOST with such a thing would be astronomical…..I mean just having them run out of fuel and blow themselves up?…at what?…a million a piece?…or likely far more…….
having unmanned UAV’s working WITH a manned aircraft?…OK I could see that…….especially for A2G….but for A2A and simply a two stage missile roaming around?…..
and AGAIN, this is a MUNITIONS and MISSILES thread slapped into Aviation…….WHY?……
and what is the sense in having a “STEALTH” Missile?…..there is utterly NO advantages at all…….except that in ones mind, there are “invisible” missiles flying 700 – 800 km’s autonomously seeking a random target…..I mean come on….what kind of sensors and radars is the launch plane going to have to “see” 800 km’s just to identify a “target”..I mean an AWACS can see out to what?…320 KM?….and at altitude…….and then pick out a flying target?…..reality check time I think……If a massive AWACS can only see 320 KM’s…how is a little missile going to “See” 800 km’s, pinpoint a target and fly itself there…the damb “target ” will be long gone….
Jay Langleyno, there’s nothing butt hurt in it, just a conclusion that the idea is silly,
the viable alternative is an UAV carrying missiles
THANK YOU , Obligatory. I couldn;t care less about thread arguments…really…and I still would say that I made a valid point, even on the F35 thread…simply that “Speculative and “will be” weapons and such are idiotic to include in the F35’s “abilities”….I mean, everything that I said was backed by others…the Gun pod is NOT ready, and the missiles that M31 was adding in where basically nothing more than paper dreams…same here……..just pure fantasy
If it was a UAV he was talking about I would agree…but his idea that the MISSILE ITSELF is the UAV is idiotic.
Jay LangleyThanks…yes, I realized that I had spelt the Hampden wrong in the post……
So as far as you can recall, that the Hampden’s never got the CC White fuselage with the dark bluey/grey upper surfaces?….I had seen Liberators and Wellingtons painted as such……and wondered about other types…
I guess my confusion over the Day vs. Night Bomber paint is that many pics of the Hampden’s show them with full camo right down their sides, then a very slim line showing with the black bottom as opposed to the more common “night bomber” paint with the black bottom extending right up the sides and only having the top and a small portion of the fuselage sides with the camo. Why is there this difference?…I hadn;t noticed it with other types so much…also noticed that the Squadron codes and aircraft ID tend to be in light grey as opposed to the more “common”, I guess, Red….
The Coastal Command colours you mentioned, would that have been a multi toned camo with sky blue bottom?…..I have only ever seen a few colour pics of them…and those where Night Bomber schemes….. The Coastal Command stuff is a tad more out of what I have seen…..
Cheers…..
Jay Langleycan you read?
the purpose of the subsonic stage is to let the missiles have very low signature thus harder for enemy to detect = harder to evade, the subsonic stage also allow the missile to cruise for very long times, instead of become useless after dozen of seconds after launch
and when near target it active the second stage for the kill
and obviously the missiles would have datalink, just like almost all long range missiles nowaday, the second stage can have EO seeker thus help in identifying enemy
and no missiles dont have to be huge to have long range, the MALD have range of 920 km, ITALD have range around 380 km, have a second stage on top of them would reduced range by half at most
and as i have explained if enemy fighter try to close the gap to dogfight, they will fly into the formation of these missiles, the missiles can be programmed to self destruct too
WTF ever…dream on……your mentality is the same as the idiots that strewed Mines all over……”well IF someone comes, then they will ..” ..well guess what……reality is this….NO NATION in the world will spend the money to launch “Speculative” Munitions into the air, than when nothing happens to simply self destruct?…….there is absolutely NO gain to having an A2A missile that flies for hundreds of KM’s….simply because targets cannot be seen that far away with any security and by the time the Missile gets there the target is 500 – 600 km’s farther away…….simply put the missile wouldn;t catch up to a plane flying at speed anyway……
Your using DECOY munitions as a basis for your idea?…….totally different….like I said, before your “stealth” 700 km flying missile goes through two stages and finally gets to where the “Target” was ( how was it located?…) it has now flown 300 km’s farther away and landed and the pilot is having lunch….
A “formation” of Missiles just randomly in the air …IN CASE the enemy fighter tries to close the distance?……your ideas will cost an awful lot of money..and wasted missiles….
Your belief that having an autonomous Munition randomly flying around is seriously scary…..can it tell the difference between a KC – 767 and a commercial 767 or a KC 135 and a Commercial 707? whats the difference…..a couple of hundred dead passengers because a missile can;t differentiate………
Why not speculate on developing a hovering “stealth” aerial mines that could be placed and they just hover in place until activated by radar contacts etc…lets have huge aerial minefields to stop any incoming planes from “Closing” the gap…..hell, they could even have the ability to fire a burst of sub munitions on radar contact with missiles…like an “trophy system” for the airspace……come on……try to be realistic……..
AND AGAIN, this belongs under MISSILES and MUNITIONS…not aviation………
Jay LangleyI think you’re missing the point. The FIs are outside the NATO area, so for NATO purposes don’t count as UK territory covered by the NATO treaty.
This is also true of British, Dutch & French territories in the West Indies (but not Bermuda, which is covered – & the Bahamas were covered at the time the treaty was signed), Hawaii, Guam, & all the other US islands in the Pacific, BIOT. Reunion, French Polynesia, New Caledonia, Ascension & Tristan da Cunha. None of them are covered by NATO. Puerto Rico is also outside the area.
The ‘Algerian Departments’ are no longer covered.
None of that stops individual NATO members helping, but it’d be purely because they wanted to, not because of NATO. There’s no NATO obligation.
Thats what I said…NOT covered by NATO, but there are MAJOR NON NATO ALLIES listed that may or may not involve a Nato based response….and as I said, with the new more involved, mutually supporting NATO efforts such as in Afghanistan and the current air ops. in Iraq and Syria against ISIS, which has many NATO members supporting the attacks….
This newer willingness to get involved and do what needs to be done will play a substantial difference in how a speculative attack on say the FI’s would be seen and reacted to…..
The fact that there are NUMEROUS Major Non NATO Allied nations now would logically sound that at some point in the future there will be shift to include those areas, especially Australia, South Korea , Japan and the Philippines. As the major threat seems to now be from China and their desire to expand in the south Pacific, rather than from Russia which is rather neutered now in comparison with the old USSR.
Lets face it, what started out as a NORTH ATLANTIC organization has expanded already to include the Mediterranean and many nations no where near the North Atlantic, it will evolve again to incorporate more Nations in the Pacific and South Atlantic.
And although your point is absolutely RIGHT, do you think that any attack on Hawaii, Guam, Ascension or Puerto Rico would NOT bring the wrath of NATO Nations down?….under Nato mandate or not, the Nations would support each other…..more certainly NOW than ever before. And that was my point….
Anyway, regardless of NATO politics, Argentina simply couldn;t GET an invasion force to the FI’s any more….they do not have the capabilities they did in the 80’s..they have been starved for funds, untrusted and pushed aside since then….their Navy is in dry dock and falling apart, their air power is obsolete and rather incapable and their ground forces are no where near what it once was….don;t forget that almost the entire Argentine “ground” effort to take the FI’s was done on the backs of Conscripts…again something no longer relevant. With the Argentine financial issues, for Argentina to consider any action towards the FI’s would result in costs that they simply couldn;t afford, both in finances as well as in material and life losses….so why sit here and flog the proverbial dead Horse.
Jay LangleyThe most practical system would be to have a Loitering vehicle in an orbit packed with a lot of air to air missiles linked through an advanced tactical data-link. You would need breakthroughs in autonomy, manned-unmanned teaming and data links.
YES Agreed,
BUT this is still not what MIG31 was talking about…this is a UAV that CARRIES other munitions and has the ability to fire them…..he was talking about a missile that could be fired hundreds of KM’s away and it would sub-sonically fly towards the “target” that miraculously just stays right there, then jumps into super sonic mode and “attacks”…..like I said, to fire a Missile like he “speculated” would cost millions, would be huge ( due to fuel for 700-800 Km’s of flight, and multi staged) and if it doesn;t find the target, then it crashes into where?…….some populated city?….it is utterly ridiculous, we have as much chance of seeing a TIE FIGHTER flying in the next ten years. dream land
Jay LangleyInterestingly , the USA named more than a few Southern Pacific/ Pacific Nations to be included as what are referred to as Major Non NATO Allies, including Australia, New Zealand, Philippines, Japan, South Korea,Thailand and ARGENTINA ( named in 1998 ). This fact alone may cause serious issue with NATO effecting intervention should Argentina choose to Invade UK territory. And any conflict in the FI’s would be that , and invasion of sovereign UK territory, no different than if Northern Ireland was invaded. Similarly, should some Nation choose to invade say Puerto Rico, an Unincorporated territory of the USA, similar to what the FI’s are to the UK, the choices would be there as well. Simply put, the FI’s wouldn;t be considered a “Colonial War”, but an invasion by a foreign Nation.
Simply put, the fact that NATO has developed a much closer working / mutually supportive operational mindset over the last several decades, it would be foolish to assume that NATO Nations wouldn’t simply jump in and support the UK….it wouldn’t be an invocation of the Article 5, but the result would occur with Nations standing together. Not to mention that the current UK military, is leaner, war tried and experienced at a FAR higher level that it was in 1982. They have gone through the “situation” once, and now have operational plans etc to deal with it. Sure some assets are gone, namely the Carriers with their Harriers, yet others have stepped up….far better A2A Refueling abilities, assets in place to hold until additional assets can get there…simply put, with the increase in the UK’s “Modernization” and Argentina’s decline…It isn;t going to happen…and even IF it did, the UK isn;t going to need “help” outside perhaps some Refueling or a base to stage from….over worrying about it is silly. Argentina simply cannot afford nor is capable militarily to invade the FI’s again.
Jay LangleyYou mean like an AAM launching version of the Minion/Minotaur? Probably already exists. They are re-usable, so the drone could be launched earlier than required so it is on station to attack targets that may pop-up. When they start to run out of fuel they just fly home to fight again the next day.
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No, he is talking about an actual Munition, a viable Missile that he figures could be launched and it would fly around for some 700 Km, and IF, IF it locates a target it would kick itself into supersonic mode and fly to the kill. It is simply a ridiculous idea, firstly, any live munition flying around for 700 KM?…seriously?…and who is going to stop it from tracking and attacking some other type of aircraft?. Not to mention that it would be HUGE and extremely costly…and if said extremely costly Missile DOESN’T find a suitable target?….it has already been launched, you can’t fly up and re attach it to the aircraft…so that weapon is now lost…dropping who knows where…a school maybe? when it runs out of fuel…..and therefore is lost with NO positive use what so ever… and a huge loss of money…..how many of these do you think could be just tossed away?…..AS WELL….as was already pointed out…do you figure that the “target” whatever, some 700 km’s away would still be around by the time it reached there?…and how the hell are you going to identify “A TARGET” 700 Km’s away?…..
Nice fantasy thread…gotta love people that come up with this stuff….should work for Lucas Films in the Star Wars movies or something. Seriously for people that are self proclaimed “Aviation fans”…the support that gets meted out for these projected ideas that are all DESTROYING aviation, turning it all into unmanned , ugly, classless “Stealth” things…where is the love of Aviation?….the joy of flight, graceful classic lines sliding through the slipstream? Because all that will be gone at an alarming rate….
Jay LangleyThe Brazilian upgraded aircraft all have refuelling probes, clearly visible in pictures of the F-5EM. Handy for Argentina.
I believe that the Saudi ones do as well…..I have seen at least two in pics that have the refuelling probes….
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My question is this….how much maintenance and such are the F – 5’s getting in Saudi now?…I mean they are completely replaced and off the books so to speak….are they just deteriorating?…..
Jay LangleyIt is a joke news. The ibercal “aprils fool” joke, Decemeber 28th. Complete idiocy.
Yeh, we got that……
The SCENARIO was still being played out…..however ridiculous it is, there were still valid points made within it….
I get that you are upset by the whole concept, it certainly wasn;t me that began by posting it nor by running with the scenario initially either…But I did feel that it needed to be rebuffed and the equations shown in their complexity…..
I will here forth refrain from commenting what so ever…..as you said, complete idiocy…… I have NO IDEA what the specific date of December 28th has to do with anything, but I am almost sure it hasn;t got much to do with “April Fools”…..
Cheers…..and good luck rebuilding Argentina’s airforce….
Jay LangleyJay, the gun pod exists- has been carried for aerodynamic test and fired on a test rig.
There is nothing particularly unique about the F-35’s gun pod: the gun itself has been around, and the poded 25mm cannon is no particular leap in technology that involves risk.
It is one of the weapons to be fully certified during SDD, and integrated with all other SDD weapons in the full war fighting 3c/ 3f software.
FBW, your simplifying this to much…..
YES prototypes have been built, it is still in D and D / testing…..in fact the test firings have shown significant issues with cracking in the recoil tracks and numerous other problems…..sure the gun has been around for decades.granted…and it shouldn;t have to be so difficult, but it apparently is………but getting it into the pod, balancing the system, ironing out recoil and firing issues etc. still haven;t been solved…it will be lucky to be ready before 2019 – 2020…and to be honest, it is a ridiculous concept…the “Need” to have a super stealthy plane with internal weapons bays is totally nullified by this horrid pod thing dangling under the plane. Personally, if the Marines think they needed this thing, then they didn;t need a Stealth plane….
Anyway, thats personal opinion…so I will curb that…… 🙂
Where is Production at now with all the delays etc.? as I have read that the LRIP 6 – 7 aircraft supposed to be between 2014 – 2017 where only supposed to have a Block 3 I ( initial war fighting)…and Block 3F not appearing until LRIP 9, and being retrofitted back to LRIP 6….http://www.aviationreportglobal.com/2012/04/03/software-releases-configurations-for-f-35-lightning-ii-jsf/
Granted this is two years old…..but where are things now?…I know they are behind by years, but where exactly?…
Jay Langley
can they put missile inside this pod ?
Mig 31,
Your doing it again…….
Listen, I know you looked it up beyond a Lockheed Martin brochure, so I would assume that you READ all over every thing on the Internet, that the HTK CUDA is a “CONCEPT”…as in unapproved by the USAF, unfunded and NOT even in existence, it has only been presented to the USAF for consideration…. Please stop confusing the issue with speculative and developmental weapon systems.
The General Dynamics Gun System is also nothing more than a DEVELOPMENTAL and DEMONSTRATION Contract between Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, it will be years before it is integrated and ready to go…IF it works to that stage…..
I’m not sure why you insist on including things that are only on paper or speculative designs / prototypes…..there is NO guarantee that they will ever make it past the development stages nor be approved for or accepted by the USAF or USMC / USN etc.
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