Never claimed it was official document, I included it for Jay as he seems a bit confused as to the how, when, why of Canada’s involvement in the F-35.

On a side note, it is an interesting read and not entirely complimentary of the F-35. It does, however, give a good summary of the pros and cons of Canada’s participation ( keeping in mind the author’s have no more access to the program than journalists, etc.)

NO, not confused at all…..as a Canadian I have followed what Canada was doing with it…..I also KNOW what Canada was ORDERED to do…that NO open competition has occured, that the “Official” stance is that NO decision has been made….

there is VERY little “complimentary” articles etc. that have been issued in Canada….yet I take ALL information with a huge grain of sand….just like ANY releases from LM…the fact remains, that despite all the tooting of horns and assertations that some “Know” about the F35…UNLESS you work for LM, for the Airforce or Government…ALL information that is in public access is fabricated propaganda……REAL facts, capabilities etc are not released to the internet hordes….so, I will stand by the fact that Canada has violated it;s own orders, it’s own purchase policies, lied to itself, to the public and is still “claiming” that it is NOT buying F35’s or at least “decided” to do so….

SO, my grasp on “Reality” and what Canada is and has done is fully intact…..I simply refuse to buy into the sales pitches and power point promises….

Like I said, far from confused…..just holding a different view of the fiasco

@Jay

All JSF Partners do have 1st hand knowledge as they are embedded in the JPO.

Yeh, Info BY LM………I am talking about 1st hand INFORMATION, gained BY SERVING RCAF Pilots FLYING the plane ( oh, yeh, that hasn;t happened has it?) information gained by the Nation of Canada FREE from influence FROM LM…..in a Canadian run / organized Competition…again all information that has been recieved is just propaganda from LM…maybe some testing results from tests contrived and conducted by OTHER Nations. Lets face it, LM and the USA is VERY bad at releasing stuff outside of it’s own…even “Partners” are kept in the dark and fed crap….much like mushrooms….

Anyway, it is pointless to argue as it becomes apparent that some will defend the way things are / have been done to the ends of the earth…..I only replied because My Nation was included into a blanket statement and one full of discrepancies…

There will be no likely “Nato” wide plane….

the needs are far to variant…preferances differ and with NATO expanding and new member states emerging….well….

In the Mosquito the 4 20mms were in the fuselage immediately below the crew. Recoil was taken by a subframe below ones feet. While the pilot had his feet on the rudder pedals he didn’t feel it, but to the nav it felt that the thin plywood floor was being belted with a lump of wood.

I can see that totally, however, as the 20mm’s where rather short barrelled and the muzzles where contained not that far forward of the the crew compartment with the breaches being almost directly under the seats……I would wonder if the Nav. would feel more of the “recoil” or feel the concussive force of the firing from the muzzles and the breaches operating almost under him?……I mean with the stable mounting and the recoil mechanisms installed, and alot of the “recoil blowback” being absorbed by the system to cycle the guns, just how much is actual recoil and how much is concussion force being absorbed and transmitted through the fuselage?

I;ve never fired guns in an Aircraft, BUT during my service in the Armoured Corp, when we where firing the Coax mounted MG’s etc…..due to the very short barrels, there was definately a substantial increase in the concussive force felt, than say from the standard long barrelled HMG…..even firing a GPMG from the bipod ( a very slim “mounting” in my opinion) there really wasn;t any HUGE recoil to be felt….yes the gun pushed back and one could feel the gun operating with the recoil blowback….but surely nothing that was uncontrollable or worrisome in fact I would say that a 12 gauge shotgun produces more “recoil” than an MG….

now certainly the large size of the 20 mm rounds would increase the effects, but again…..looking at the mounting and locations of the “parts”…is it more concussive waves hitting the airframe OR is it the mechanical recoil being felt?……combination of both?……in my opinion, the recoil is always accounted for in the initial design of the weapon, systems and mountings designed to absorb the bulk of the “recoil”…but the concussive “shock waves” that eminate from the barrel ( combustive gasses behind the projectile ) is almost impossible to control and certainly with a shortened barrel on a mounting like the quad mount on the Mossie, I think that even with the plane flying at speed, the shock waves ( for lack of a better word) would slam the bottom of the aircraft with every firing….

just my take on it……..cheers…

i think Brazil will pay for redundancy and indigenous solutions, developing their industrial & research skill for self sufficiency,
plus the fact that Argentina is a close neighbor/ally

up to 30% of the plane worth of “solutions”? For Argentina? Argentina is not exactly rolling in the dough, how many Brazilian built Gripens will Argentina be buying to make the expendature for those solutions worthwhile? Remembering that Brazil it;s self does’nt need to replace these parts for it;s own use…just to sell some to Argentina.

I can understand the possability of Self Sufficiency, but to make a profit? or just to be able to?

Is that a question or a statement? Because we’ve had no such conversation nor have I handed out any accords.

As for the PAK FA, its Russian order book will be in excess of 200 units. 60 aircraft plus is the preliminary order being placed by the Russian MoD.

“The Air Force will start taking delivery [of fifth-generation fighters] in 2015-16. The preliminary number is over 60,” Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said. – RIA Novosti

_________

When pitted against Russian Su-30s and Su-35s, the F-35 will still have a far better LE ratio than the SH (despite the SH costing only 25% less to acquire). But yes with the (mostly F-35 equipped) Americans and Europeans taking the heat off Canada, you could afford to go cheaper. The Textron Scorpion is in fact perfect for tagging Russian bomber patrols.

MOSTLY F35 equipped Europeans?……..seriously?….the UK will still maintain it’s fleet of EF’s…the Luftwaffe will be flying EF’s, France flying the Rafales, The Swiss will be flying their F/a 18’s, the Czechs their Gripens, the Poles their variety bag ( but NO F35’s)…Italy hasn;t finalized ANY yet and only 60 expected…over 76 EF’s with 20 more on order , 85 upgraded Tornados and 55 AMX’s…even the USA isn;t going “all in” with the F35, they are keeping their F15’s and the F22’s as well. SO NO sunshine, NO ONE is counting on the F35’s to take the “HEAT” off anyone, the only “all F35” airforces will be the Dutch ( who really don;t participate in anything) and the Norwegians ( IF they get rid of their F16’s).

What the Russians SAY they are going to do, and reality are VERY VERY distant from each other. As I said, between their “Super Tanks” that had everyone crapping themselves in the 80-‘s and 90’s that where going to be made by the hundreds of thousands.( NONE where made, project cancelled due to bankruptcy) and their Grand , wonderful ideas about building a new fleet in the Black Sea, seriously, take any “orders or expected orders” to be fictional and at least double if not more of what in reality can be afforded…….Russia is BROKE, it has no support outside of India and a collection of pathetic dirt poor third world Nations mostly in Africa.

Man, believe the hype and the propaganda all you want, it;s NOT going to be near as wonderfully VLO mass encounters as you may fantasize about. Try OLDER designed and built fighters called in to take in the slack from the “big let down” the VLO numbers will provide. And really? you believe Russia is going to go to war? Putin the Cretin will be ousted and hung by revolt BEFORE he gets Russia into a shoot down drag out fight with the world. Fearing the “boogie man” is war mongering. The USA is full of it and is RUN by the ARMS manufacturers, if you choose to BELIEVE the hype, thats up to you. I have gone through YEARS of Threat Briefings on the Russians while I was in the Military, this “New Russia” is not even a fraction of what the USSR used to be, and simply cannot afford to finance another arms race. It;s all Propaganda and fiction. Russia MAY, MAY get it’s first order for PAK FA’s in, IF it pays for them ( doubtful) but no way 200 plus.

Anyway, have fun in make believe land.

And Canada certainly has NEVER shirked it’s part in anything