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ianwoodward9

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Viewing 15 posts - 736 through 750 (of 806 total)
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  • in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840015
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thanks, both, for the confirmation of the location. As I indicated in Post #18, my assumption has been that the two photographs showed the same aircraft on the same day but perhaps that was not the case. If my assumption was correct and the photos show the same aircraft, what route would it have taken between the two places, I wonder.

    Flying north past Sannox and turning to starboard would indeed line up with the main runway at Prestwick, as you show in one of your images, Matt. It would have been a long run-in but perhaps they did so for the benefit of the photographer.

    Incidentally, this looks to be the same runway and from the same direction as AL528 in the photograph I showed in Posts #1 and #2.

    in reply to: The fate of a 93 Squadron Spitfire #840041
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thank you, GYD. It was apparently hit by flak and abandoned on 24 June 1944 over Albania.

    93 Squadron had been moving up the west coast of Italy. In early June 1944, they moved to Tre Cancelli, a sand strip just NE of Anzio. Just over a week later, they moved further up the coast to Tarquinia, using a concrete runway but one which had suffered badly from Allied bombing, its craters having been filled with rubble. The dust that came up apparently caused the Spitfires some problems. LZ929 was lost the day before their next move to Grosseto.

    For those who are, like me, of a certain age, I should add that Raymond Baxter was a member of 93 Squadron during the period in question.

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840107
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    In “Merchant Airmen” (HMSO, 1946), the photograph is captioned:-

    ‘COMING IN. A Return-Ferry Liberator flies low along the hilly, cloud-capped coast of Arran after a flight from Montreal. With a good tail wind she can do the west-to-east crossing – over 3,000 miles – in something under fourteen hours.’

    In FLIGHT (22 March 1945), the caption reads:-

    ‘HOME BOUND : A Liberator passing along the coast of Arran after flying the Atlantic from Montreal.”

    It is an Air Ministry photograph and it is possible that, originally, it was issued with a press ‘blurb’ attached (rather like the one at the start of this thread) and that the blurb identified the location as I’ve given it here. Does that mean that the ‘blurb’ was 100% accurate? I don’t know but views are welcome.

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840114
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thanks, scotavia. I think I recall reading somewhere that RFS aircraft departing Prestwick would tend to gp round the southern end of Arran before heading off across the Atlantic. Your identification of the likely location of that photograph seems to indicate that those coming into Prestwick adopted the same practice, only in reverse, of course.

    I show below the photograph that appears in HMSO’s “Merchant Airmen” booklet, which seems to have the Liberator slightly further down the Arran coast. I also show the same photograph as it appeared in FLIGHT in 1945; the quality is lower but it shows a bit more of the coast, in case that helps. It also shows the photo reference number scrawled on. It looks like there is beach and a small jetty in the background

    If the images are too small, just click on them to show them larger (or double-click to make them even larger).

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840434
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I should have mentioned that I assume that the above photo shows the Liberator flying along the coast of Arran because the other one (the one labelled CH 14158) is captioned, ‘HOMEWARD BOUND: A Liberator passing the coast of Arran after flying the Atlantic from Montreal“.

    I also have a full frame photo of AL614 on the ground. Again, it isn’t captioned but it could be at Prestwick. Was AL614 employed on the Return Ferry Service?

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840436
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thank you for that information, Ross. It reads as though the USN pilots were ‘military advisers’, in modern diplomatic parlance.

    No, I didn’t recall AM261 (nor AM260, which crashed on take-off at Prestwick around the same time). I was commenting more on those Liberators allocated civilian registrations (whether or not they used them). Opening this thread was prompted by the photo posted at the start. I do have the 1945 HMSO booklet “Atlantic Bridge” and did consult some of my old aviation books but it has been so very interesting to read more about the Return Ferry Service.

    Below is another Liberator photo I have. I have seen a similar photo in published sources (marked as CH 14158) and, though the one I’ve just posted has no details on the reverse side, I assume it’s from the same series of official Air Ministry photos.

    Incidentally, I lived for some years quite close to Prestwick Airport and indeed, well before that, my first night in Scotland was spent in the old terminal building there, possibly the one used by the RFS. Also, for a short period, I worked on the first floor of a building near the Ayrshire coast with a clear view some days across the Clyde to snow-capped Goat Fell (and quite likely the crash site of AM261).

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840488
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I don’t think I said that the USN was involved only after the sinking of the Reuben James and I’m sorry if I gave that impression. I was trying to say that it was the sinking of the Reuben James that hastened the repeal of the Neutrality Acts and also to point out that their repeal pre-dated Japan’s raid on Pearl Harbor and the USA’s formal entry into WWII.

    I was aware that the USN was permitted to defend merchant shipping before the sinking of the Reuben James. I concede that this was not limited to defending US merchant shipping, which is what I implied.

    In respect of the involvement of USN aircrew in Coastal Command, was this an extension of the permission given to the surface fleet to protect merchant shipping?

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840520
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    The USA’s Neutrality Acts of 1935, 1936 and 1937 certainly provided a stumbling block at the start of WWII. In 1939, initial efforts to amend their provisions were rebuffed but, following Germany’s invasion of Poland, a new Neutrality Act was approved by Congress in November 1939. This allowed for arms to be provided on what was known as a ‘cash-&-carry’ basis, though American citizens were still barred from entering a war zone. It seems that Canada, as a belligerent nation counted as a war zone.

    The effect was as follows. American-built aircraft were flown to northern states in the Mid-West, parked really close to the border, then towed into Canada (sometimes by horses). I believe this arrangement started early in 1940. Once in Canada, the aircraft were flown away to be delivered to Britain and also, I believe, to France. The Lend-Lease Act didn’t come in until March 1941.

    A bit of an aside, now. Though not directly involved in the war, USA’s ships were being sunk by German subs, so Roosevelt then allowed the US Navy to defend its merchant ships. On Hallowe’en 1941, the US destroyer Reuben James was sunk; some of you may know the Woody Guthrie song that goes, “Tell me, what were their names? / Tell me, what were their names? / Did you have a friend on the good Reuben James?“. The Neutrality Acts were repealed within a fortnight, allowing merchant ships to carry war cargoes and to be armed. This was about four weeks before the USA declared war on Germany and Italy.

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840523
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    If you haven’t seen this, it is worth a few minutes of your time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAGDxzC71-Y

    It is a 1942 Pathe Newsreel about RAF Ferry Command. It features Liberator II AL592 (G-AHYF) in the opening section.

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840532
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thank you for all this additional information. It is so very welcome. As I have said in other posts, I am a lapsed aviation enthusiast, whose Air Britain membership ended about 55 years ago. It is therefore quite invigorating to read about all this further research (and its publication). Perhaps you will permit me some additional comments.

    From AL528’s chronology, provided by Matt, it would seem that it made at least two trans-Atlantic flights when registered as G-AGEM. The second is shown as an RFS flight, the first only “possibly” so. Nevertheless, this again raises the question of whether it bore civil or military marks for one or other of these two flights.

    It is also noteworthy that it made a couple of return flights to Cairo before it was registered as G-AGEM. According to AJ Jackson’s book on British Civil Aircraft, two Liberators were allocated to this service in 1942. Both wore their civil registration markings for this duty. G-AGDR (formerly AM918) made the inaugural flight from Hurn to Almaza in late January 1942 but, on its return, was shot down near the Eddystone Light on 15 February 1942. The other Liberator, G-AGCD (formerly AM259) apparently continued this service on its own until the end of 1942. I wonder if AL528 made these Cairo flights to supplement the efforts of G-AGCD.

    With regard to these Cairo flights, Lazy 8’s comment about the lax application, in wartime, of the ‘rules’ on civil versus military markings is apposite. One would think that, if it were advisable for G-AGDR and G-AGCD to be in civilian guise, the same would have applied to AL528, yet the mark G-AGEM was only registered while it was away on the second of its two Cairo flights. I wonder if, around that time, there was a notion to use it more permanently on that service to join G-AGCD but, after carrying out two trans-Atlantic flights in the course of August 1942, the second of which was apparently for the RFS, it was decided that the RFS flights had priority and thus AL528’s civilian registration could be cancelled. Pure speculation but it would seem to fit the dates.

    In respect of the requirement to apply camouflage for the North Atlantic run, the first Lodestar obtained by the Norwegian Purchasing Commission for use on the ‘Stockholm Run’ was delivered to Dorval in bare metal and had to be ‘camouflaged’ there before continuing its delivery flight to Prestwick (later purchases were camouflaged at Lockheed’s factory).

    Farnboroughrob, I do not have the MacVicar book but shall look out for a copy. I seem to recall that “Atlantic Bridge”, the 1945 HMSO account of Transport Command’s ‘Ocean Ferry’ activities, said that the RAF could not release sufficient pilots for the service, so that delivery crews were made up with all manner of civilian pilots, including barnstormers and those more used to crop spraying. Whether this was the case for the Liberator crews on the RFS, I don’t know but wouldn’t be surprised. Of course, the other element, at that time, was that very few pilots indeed had flown such long distances, over vast oceans, in such cold winter conditions.

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840607
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    According to ‘G-INFO’, Liberator II G-AGEM was placed on the British civil register on 31 July 1942. Its owner was BOAC with an address at the Grand Spa Hotel in Clifton, Bristol. The base for the aircraft, however, was given as Montreal, Canada.

    According to AJ Jackson’s book on British Civil Aircraft, its C of A was issued on 7 August 1942 and then, going back to ‘G-INFO’ once more, its civil registration was cancelled by the Secretary of State on 28 August 1942.

    So it was officially G-AGEM for less than one month. I suspect that it never bore its British civilian registration markings in this brief period.

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840645
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I don’t know for sure but I believe that you are correct. I base this on the need for aircraft and crews on the Stockholm run and on the service to Lisbon, for example, to be civilian – ostensibly at least. The Norwegian crews on the Stockholm Run were nominally British and wore BOAC uniforms.

    AL528, along with some other BOAC Liberators, was allocated a civil registration (G-AGEM) apparently in case it was required to visit a neutral country, though I have no idea if it actually bore these markings at any time.

    Yes, they were used on the Return Ferry Service, which BOAC operated from September 1941 onwards. One BOAC Liberator (AL512/G-AGEL) crashed at Gander in December 1942. I’m not aware of any other BOAC Liberator losses on the North Atlantic, though there were a number of incidents, such as birdstrike, and at least one belly landing).

    AL528, itself, did crash in Canada but this was in February 1946.

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #840661
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Even when you click on the above images to expand, the first is a bit small, so I’ll try to get it a bit larger (wish me luck):

    in reply to: Old BBC broadcast : Britain's Merchant Air Service" #840676
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I hope to be able to post an image of the cutting to which I referred at the start of this thread:

    in reply to: Where exactly was RAF Debden? #774906
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Apologies, Adrian. My irony gene was plainly sub-optimal yesterday.

Viewing 15 posts - 736 through 750 (of 806 total)