lindougThanks guys. Keep the responses coming.
France is a possibility but not from Laon which the 66th left in 1966.
lindougThanks everyone for keeping this thread going. I have been fortunate indeed in finding some folks to help with some first hand experiences of the Venom NFs. I’ll let you know how things go. In the meanwhile keep the stories coming!
lindougEven better read “Stranger To The Ground” by Richard Bach, at night and when there is a thunderstorm around.
A excellent book. I got mine from Amazon for 1p + postage; but beware you WW2 /BoB/Spitfires etc etc;. It’s about a flight by an ANG F-84F Thunderstreak over Europe at the time of Operation Stairstep.
lindougDH Venom
As I understand it, they were, like most de Havilland products, actually quite nice to fly.
I’ve also found an original pilots notes for the NF3 if its of any use to your research?
Bruce
Bruce,
I’ve sent you an e mail.
Doug.
lindougPeter,
Thanks for your input. I’ve sent you an e mail.
Doug
lindougLindoug, I’m always fascinated by your requests as the subjects seem to be something I’m quite interested in, do they become books or publications anywhere?
I write articles for submission to both UK and French aviation magazines. Most recent ones you may have come across are the RF-100A Slick Chick missions in last December’s Flypast.; and a piece on the RF-4Cs at Alconbury in the May issue of Aircraft. I’ve just completed an article on the Javelin FAW.9 which I’ll be sending off this weekend; and keep an eye open for the Meteor FR.9 in an imminent Flypast! Also one on the F-86s at Shepherds Grove in another UK publication.
The French magazine I write for is Le Fana de L’Aviation. This month I have an article on the RF-84 Thunderflash in there. Fana is a fascinating publication and rather akin to what Air Enthusiast used to be before its sad demise. If you get a chance to look at a copy do so.
I like to specialise in Cold War subjects and the Venom Night Fighters appealed to me………probably because of the controversy surrounding it and’ by focusing on one variant’ I think that, within the space limitations of a magazine article’ I can do it more justice.
Having just read the relevant chapters of David Watkins Venom book it’s of note that not all the pilot stories are as negative about the aircraft as some of the posts here.
Doug Gordon
lindougThe procurement of the Venom Night Fighter appears to have been a tremendous c*ck-up, and was even recognised as such at the time. The aircraft was rejected when first proposed by DH, but was later ordered in late 1950 during the rush to rearm following the outbreak of the Korean War. Order was in advance of trials at the A&AEE. Trials of the prototype found all sorts of problems, including poor escape facilities and handling difficulties. Trials of the production aircraft showed they had even worse problems. Work by the company to rectify the problems was only partially successful. By then the Air Ministry was stuck with a lemon: it would be expensive to cancel and there was nothing in timescale to replace it with.
But it was in service for a period on average of 2 years 55 to 57.
I’d like to get a few first hand accounts of the aircraft in service. I have learnt that posting to a Venom NF unit was considered by some pilots to be a punishment!!
If it turns out that all is as bad as it seems, then I think it’s still a story worth telling.. Eight RAF Squadrons were equipped with the NF2/NF2A or NF3: 23, 33, 89, 125, 141, 151, 219, 253 That’s a lot of pilots, navigators and ground crew who gave a lot of time to it at the height of the Cold War.
lindougI think there is a huge problem with some of the photo libraries eg Flight/ Aeroplane/ Boeing in so far as the fees that they charge for their photos for publication are so high that people like myself who write articles for aviation magazines, simply can not afford to use them. The cost of two photos would often be more that the fee paid for the article. As anyone would know we don’t do it for the money but we can’t do it for nothing..
Sadly some individual photographers are also culpable. I was once quoted £200 for the use of a photo to accompany my recent RF-4C article. Needless to say I didn’t bother!
We need to be able to rely on one another. I for one have no hesitation in sharing photos with other enthusiasts and writers
Finally on a positive note: What a joy to discover that the BAe photo archives don’t charge for reproduction.
lindoug“I do worry about the future of classic aircraft such as the Canberra, Hunter,Gnat to name a few as people seem far happier to see 15 Spitfires in the air rather then a couple of classic jets……might just be my age:confused:………and before you say it i totally respect what the Spitfire did for us in WW2 that does’nt mean we forget about the rest.”
Matt, How right you are! Give the jets a chance. Sadly I think that there is little chance of seeing some of the iconic jets of the ’50s take to the air again; but surely we can celebrate the men and machines of the Cold War. They deserve it! Perhaps after this year our attention can be turned in that direction…….After all there must be a limit to the number of Spitfire, Hurricane and Mustang stories there are to tell! 2011 is the 60th anniversary of the first flight of the Hunter, Javelin, Sea Vixen and Valiant. There’s a start!
lindougThe study has it about right. We’ve lived in France with our three young children for 8 years. I can’t think of one reason why I should ever consider living in the UK again…..and I lived and worked there for 57 years!
lindougThe study has it about right. We’ve lived in France with our three young children for 8 years. I can’t think of one reason why I should ever consider living in the UK again…..and I lived and worked there for 57 years!
lindougThanks very much for the input. Here are a couple of photos (Credit Mike Stroud) taken at Hatfield with the Hunter.
I wonder if any were taken with the 110.
lindougTake note 5€ and wonder why in the UK it’s always so much dearer.
lindougHe agreed with Robin’s statement about the ‘fun’ of the over the shoulder. When carrying the concrete shape on this method, he would often roll his aircraft after releasing the shape, so that it was floating on its upward trajectory a few few from his canopy. Not the smartest thing to do, but then that Wing did a lot of things that weren’t particularly smart with their airplanes. From what Dad said, it was really a wild bunch, especially in the 1960-61 time frame.
Flying the RF-101 the 38th TRS took on a nuclear delivery role flying out of Ramstein in 1962. Don Karges flew with the squadron and recalls a couple of things which are relevant to our discussion.
“”Occasionally we dropped a 2000 pound concrete shape which had a drogue chute similar to the real weapon. This was much more realistic, but caused a few laughs and scary moments. If we were doing a LADD delivery, the shape would release while we were in a steep climb, the chute would deploy immediately and fall behind and below the aircraft. Our escape manoeuvre to avoid the blast was to roll inverted, pull 4gs toward the ground and escape straight at high speed/low level. BUT, once in a while the chute would not deploy and when we rolled inverted to pull toward the ground the 2000 pound concrete shape was right opposite the canopy as if it were flying formation! Obviously the shape goes into a ballistic curve and lands who knows where.”
As for the prospect of flying a two way mission:
“……if one thinks of about the hundreds of airplanes and missiles that would be airborne and reflects that everyone would need to be exactly on course, on time you knew how hopeless that would be. Frankly we didn’t expect to return.”
The regulation eye patch also caused some amusement to the pilots of the F and RF-101s. To avoid being totally blinded by the glare from the nuclear bursts that would inevitably occur around them they would wear the patch until they made their target. It was then removed and the good eye could complete the bomb release routines.
lindougAs a point of interest re special weapons delivery I attach below an extract of an article I wrote some time ago.
Robin Olds took command of the 81st TFW in 1963 and he has fond memories of his numerous TDYs to El Outia. to practice special weapons delivery:
“Our course to Africa always took us across central France, coasting out between Marseilles and Nice, over the Mediterranean, past Malta and Pantelleria and on to Tripoli. The French were always the French! Invariably we would be given a lower altitude as we entered their air space, and, invariably, we acknowledged, and then reported arriving at the assigned lower height, when in fact we continued to cruise climb all the way to complete our journey. Their Mirage 3s often intercepted us and they would regularly do arrogant barrel rolls around us as we plodded along, staying just ahead of stall speed, chasing the Mach. We rather enjoyed their antics, and always gave them the finger in the form of our air refuelling probe; which came up rudely from out of the nose of the F-101.
Once in Libya, all of us pilots enjoyed our times at Wheelus. We trained in both types of ‘nuke’ strike delivery as well as spending time on the conventional ranges.”
Operation Camel Saddle, as the regular detachments were called were designed to qualify and requalify bomb commanders in Low Altitude Bombing System (LABS) techniques initially; but later in the other more sophisticated means of delivery that were to be developed. In addition Cold Wind exercises were regularly held at least once every two months. These exercises were specifically designed to test the reaction of the individual combat units in simulated wartime conditions. The Victor Alert commitment was increased progressively over the years 1958 to 1969; each squadron assigning four bomb commanders on a 24 hour alert condition. In late 1959 the Eastern Baltic was acquired as a target area. It became necessary to develop pre and post strike air to air refueling in order for these new targets to be reached. Wing Intelligence constantly updated information on all target areas. In 1959 the Soviets introduced a new early warning radar. The position of these systems had been identified by the countermeasures squadrons of the 10th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing working in unison with the air defence aircraft of the 86th Tactical Fighter Wing. Codenamed Barlock the efficiency of this radar had a marked effect on mission planning; with a great deal of additional time having to be spent by wing intelligence on devising ways of dealing with the threat it posed; particularly as it’s introduction heralded a considerable increase in the number of SAM sites in it’s vicinity.
The Annotated List of Airfields, Radar and Missiles (ALARM) became the primary order of battle and mission planning document for the 81st TFW. ALARM contained information on 542 Soviet and satellite airfields and 32 possible Surface to Air missile (SAM) sites. It also contained invaluable information on the Soviet Electronic Warfare capability where this related to the F-101. It was a document that was changed and updated weekly as information from the reconnaissance and electronic surveillance units of USAFE became available.
The mission of the 81st was a constantly developing one. The Victor Alert commitment was doubled.in early 1960.
Pilots of the 81st were constantly practicing and upgrading their skills. In 1960 Low Altitude Drogue Delivery (LADD) became the favoured means of special weapon delivery; and the Mark 28 atomic bomb became standard at this time. LABS however was still practiced and would have been used alongside LADD in a hot war. Eventually all crews had to qualify in five delivery systems with no less than four special weapons. They were: high angle LABS using the Mark 7 and Mark 28 bomb; Visual laydown with the Mark 43; Visual timed pull-up and Blind timed pull-up with the Mark 28RRE and the Mark 28RE; and Blind level delivery with the Mark 28RE and the Mark 43. Project Lampshade, the development of an all weather target capability for the Voodoo, was completed towards to the end of 1960 and at that time the 81st became the first tactical fighter wing in USAFE with a proven all weather radar capability. Robin Olds had his preferences as to the methods of delivery:
“All the methods were challenging and enjoyable to practice. However I have to say the laydown was probably the most accurate and the ‘Over the Shoulder’ the most fun, but what did it matter? Considering the strength of the object we were tasked with delivering, I don’t suppose a few feet this way or that would have made a hell of a difference!”
Sign In
