R6915Further to my earlier ‘piece’ above, I wrote B.A.E. Of course it was B.A.C. ! But thinking further I then remembered a superb paper written for ‘The Aviation Historian’ quarterly journal published by subscription only. Please see, issue 44, published July 2023. http://www.theaviationhistorian.com
The paper is entitled Healey’s Axe The Cancellation Of The TSR.2. The author is Professor Keith Hayward FRAeS. The Professor gave a lecture on the TSR.2 in May 2023 at RAF Museum Midlands for the Royal Aeronautical Society Conferance on the TSR.2. As a source of information he used official papers from the then newly elected Labour Government of 1965. These document sources are included as a detailed addendum at the end of his paper.
The journal, I understand, is about to change its format and the editors may still have copies to remainder. May I suggest check their website!
I appreciate that this may seem to be thread creep. I apologise if that is so, but this paper, I suggest, is quite far reaching and also looks internationaly at the politics and the types of aircraft emerging in the USA and elsewhere at the time. It may also make it easier to confirm what happened to some of the part constructed aircraft that were on the Brooklands production line at the time.
R6915I suggest these strings are a very welcome arrival for a couple of reasons. Firstly does this series of correspondence hint at the maturation of this Forum after too many years of wilderness? I do hope so. Next, there are stil too many unknowns about the TSR 2. It’s possible future development after all this time and isn’t it possible some discrete files could now be opened?
I had the great pleasure in exchanging letters years ago with one of the long retired office managers at BAE Brooklands where a big chunk of the design work was carried out. Some of the senior personel even came from R.J Mitchell’s team at Supermarine and remember they created the Spitfire. They stayed with the company for many years and retired from the BAE group after this debacle.
The tears of frustration that afternoon when the cancellation news came through caused great despondency. I have a short unpublished chapter written by my contact of his memories from 1928 via his management apprenticeship starting in 1928 on that day. It that tells the whole team’s despondency. That same team contributed to the Concord design.
I think Contributor J. Boyle’s question is so timely and welcome and this is what this Forum used to do so well. Please let’s have more well informed debate with an eye on the Resurection of TSR2 story – or whatever is really going on!
R6915South of Arundel (W.Sussex!)
Friday 26th July afternoon. I’m close beside tall trees thus no vision at all, sounds like a collection of Merlin engines (Plus aircraft!) possibly going to join the Goodwood Circuit!
Saturday 27th. A pair of Spitfires (possibly Tr9’s) in nice tidy formation flying around the area from time to time during the day.
Sunday 28th. Morning. Pair of Spitfires in formation heading for South Downs. Always a useful navigation point. Forty minutes later a Hurricane, in a hurry, and at a higher altitude.
Afternoon Sunday, yellow biplane (Boeing?) with radial engine (no visible USAAF roundels under wings) with a small biplane in its wake, not sure what that was, anyone any ideas? Oh yes nearly forgot Goodwood’s blue Harvard was shifting the humidity a little!
R6915I note you are new to this Forum – and welcome. You may not have noted that Melvyn Hiscock died after a miserable battle with cancer – I’m open to an accurate correction, here, but I think it was early 2023. His loss was widely reported in the aviation press and he remains a much missed friend to many of us.
R6915I see that the can of worms is slowly opening as predicted! I’ll offer some thread drift to bulk out the conversations if I may!
In the mid 1980’s the then new Spitfire Society was formed and memberships rapidly increased. Jeffrey Quill (JQ) was soon inducted to become President along with some more Spitfire names familiar to we armchair pilots. The founder – Wing Commander Retd. David Green and JQ in conversation expressed the wish that a full size Spitfire (non flying) prototype (K5054) be built for students to study the first of the nearly 23,000 that were manufactured in a stream of developments over the next 12 years.
It was to be created from a range of materials, such as the fuselage frames from timber. The skin was aluminium and so on. By about 1990 the forthcoming construction was being talked about quite widely. In common with this topic considering what to ‘call’ the Peoples Mosquito, had also started to emerge about this Spitfire Society sponsored construction.
JQ , as his published books also show us, used the English language very effectively. He considered ‘Replica’ to be a good possibility, but wasn’t quite comfortable with it! He decided that the term FACSIMILE felt easier. We trustees took that to be a clear indication of what was needed and in all conversations and documents thereafter when we refered to our K5054 as that !
Does FACSIMILE suit the ‘Peoples Mosquito’ ? Purely a suggestion for consideration.
R6915June 2 @ 18.35. Formation of three C47 ‘s heading south east in Worthing direction.
Engine sound then changed suggesting that maybe they were following the coastline in the Portsmouth direction. Any comments?
But a great sound, perfect blue sky, right hand side of the three beautifully lit by lowering sun light. A never to be forgotten couple of minutes celebrating D Day +80.
R6915This question has cropped up from time to time in past years and has never yet, to my knowledge, produced an accurate answer to it! May I suggest some extra sources that may be of help..
Assuming, respectfully, you’re certain that the photo was taken at Hursley (more on that later) have you Googled SUPERMARINERS ?
https://supermariners.wordpress.com/about/contact/ .
Maybe they have an original copy of it? They have excellent lists of who was working at the many Southampton and Salisbury area Supermarine sites, as well as a wealth of other information on the company and staff.
The pilot standing on the left of the photo is not Jeffrey Quill. Is it Mike Lithgow? He had retired from the Fleet Air Arm and joined Supermarine as a test pilot in January 1946 and became the company’s chief test pilot two years later. He would have extensive knowledge of Naval aviation matters and thus in a good position critically consider the Seafang for the Admiralty. Indeed in September 1946 he flew a Seafang in the high speed air racing event at Lympne! Guy Morgan maybe?
Taking another direction, no photographic accreditation or copyright holder has emerged (so far) to help. The image to me always has a gritty feel to it and seems to be possibly an amateur not an ‘in house’ photo by the company photographer (C.Douglas Burr) of the time. Or maybe it is simply a copy of a copy! Where was it constructed? Quite possibly Hursley Park house, then trucked to maybe Eastleigh, High Post near Boscombe Down, Worthy Down, Chilbolton. Probably not Chattis Hill, there were other sites that were also used in Wiltshire.
Supermarine’s archives were held at a Cambridge University library for many years. I was told recently that they were moved to BAE Systems Central Archives at Farnborough, Hampshire. I haven’t searched there as yet, myself.
There is a helpful website relating to Chilbolton by a local history group it details Supermarine’s time there;-
I have an old friend to ask if he knows the answer to this and if there’s any answer I will respond here.
Good luck in hunting this one down, will you keep us in touch with progress, please?
R6915AG, as you say IF the WIX is accurate it does pose a question whether there is a second airframe in Mr. Lamplough’s ownership. What is the W/Nr?. The date that the Condor Legion commenced flying in Spain could maybe provide a starting point clue from the aspect of the original type of engine fitted.
Bearing in mind that Bf 109 airframes were not fitted with the DB 600 series engines. IF that airframe does exist (anywhere) was it fitted with a Junkers Jumo 210 engine and could there be differences in any airframe accesory fittments, for example, that could provide any clues? If yes, is it even remotely possible the airframe might be a Bf 109 B/ C/ D rather than an E/1,E/2, or E/3.
Mr. Google’s Wikipedia page showing Bf109 Surviving Airframes says that in Germany there is a :-
“Bf 109B/V10a 1010 (D-IAKO), Oberschleißheim, Munich — only surviving Bf 109 prototype airframe known to exist”.
I suggest that WIX could be getting off track here. But has anyone got firm evidence one way or another?
R6915I Googled Wheezers & Dodgers – just in case I got a result.
Surprisingly there is a Kindle version of the book currently available. It also seems that this book was reprinted in 2009 by Seaforth.
Seaforth Publishing By Pawle, Gerald. ISBN 1848320264 Paperback, 304 pages
There’s also a short Wikipedia page and the author Gerald Pawle was one of the group of naval officers involved with Neville Shute (who wrote the forward to the book. The official titlle bestowed upon them by The Lords Of The Admiraity was :- Department of Miscellaneous Weapons Development
Whether there’s a Mosquito connection mentioned I do not know, but as it is also published on line as a Google Book I will look at it soon. But I do recall it was written with great humour!
R6915I had a brief conversation with Robs Lamplough around 2007 when he hosted an Aircrew Association meeting after a Hungerford pub gathering that included Pete Brothers. When we later went up to his farm he later took me into a ‘big barn’ to show me his Spitfire (Mark VIII ?) and I saw a Bf 109 on the floor and also asked him about it. If I recall correctly he said he found it when it was destined for an airfield dump for use as an accident and fire practice item by the team at Tablada in Spain.
I did also ask him if he had also loaned it previously in the early days of the Tangmere Military Aircraft Museum for display? Yes was the answer. He did have a P51 Mustang outside the barn that was flown later that afternoon with a lucky Aircrew Association member sitting behind him as he took of from a grass strip with crops sown either side!
That BF 109 has come a long way since then! Let’s hope that one of our correspondents keeps us up to date on its further progress. And yes there was a fleet of Formula 1 historic cars in an adjoining building in addition to the Spitfire, and some helicopters that were ex Ministry disposals. Do I also recall a red Fokker Triplane in another corner?
R6915A great many years ago I dimly remember reading a paperback book written about the “Wheezers and Dodgers”. This group of Naval Officers were tasked with creating, strange, possibly crazy weapons for clandestine operations. Author Neville Shute Norway was one of them. Other names I have forgotten but one infamous experiment included the big Pan Yam Drum!
But I have the thought that this book also included also incuded them being tasked with something to do with building scal models of the proposed landing beaches including details of the types of sand , beach gradients, and more minute detail that had to be investigated before it was considered possible to beech landing craft on a specific beach. My memory of this book goes back to about fifty years ago or thereabouts when it was first published so do check the foregoing most carefully.
Didn’t the Fleet Air Arm also have access to a few Mosquito’s – or am I dreaming. Some one on here will set that straight, I’m sure.
I do hope this may give you a lead! Best of Luck!
R6915From the red face department, so toTexanTomcat 2 I have to admit my total embarasment and thank you for setting the story straight. The details I had stored in my memory were collected a long tiime ago and I have to wonder how I got this all so wrong. I think the vital lesson is that one has be very wary of being so dogmatic. My profound regrets and apologies to one and all.
R6915The Wimpey actually would have come in to Hendon by road possibly from Heathrow! It had, before that, been at Wisley for some time as someone in Whitehall decided that it and the others that had been repurposed into T10’s were simply redundant. Why Wisley? Because the contract for modification to T10’s to be carried out, was won by Vickers Armstrongs. I could be mistaken but from memory I think there were ten on the contract. This one was the last of the batch and it was completed and fully airworthy – my father did fly in it as flight test observer possibly 1954) as he did with many more off the production line at Brooklands 10 to 12 years before.
September 15th 1956 saw a Royal Aeronautical Garden Party held at Wisley. In a hangar there was a Scimatar behind a screen but in front of that screen was the complete R.G.J. Nash Collection – except for his new item, the Wellington. It did not join the display that day! At that time the whole collection was understood to be stored in the British European Airways engineering hangar at London Airport as it was then named. I imagine that the collection was later dispersed around the UK. Quite possibly the Wellington went on to an RAF Base for some years until the Hendon RAF Museum was opened.
Sorry about the story creep here but I suggest it offers some more research into the largely forgotten NASH collection and what happened to it as well as the Wellington’s history pre Hendon.
R6915New Forumite RUNWAY 23 seems to have misunderstood the purpose of this forum, in my opinion. Isn’t it a platform to openly discuss, I suggest, without fear or favour opinions on the general topics and and specifics that interests all Forumites? Thus when respected Forumite Air Ministry or anyone else opens a new topic that puzzles and intrigues him he is welcoming our opinions to help him resolve that puzzle.
That RUNWAY 23 then releases sarcastic responses to contributing Forumite (Steve611 in this instance) where he has contributed a line of research generously given, that insults all of us who look in here to consider and debate the topic’s questions and answers.
His lack of understanding about the purpose of this forum causes him, does it not, to be regarded in the future with our collective disdain. Let us hope that he will find an alternative platform somewhere and be gone from here.
R6915I fully agree, there is a great hunger for Flying Legends.
Would Middle Wallop be a practical possibility if the Army Air Corps could stand down for a weekend????
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